Episode 22: Avoiding Self Coercion Through Intuitive Eating
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Transcript
[00:00:11] Blue: All right, welcome to the theory of anything podcast.
[00:00:14] Red: I’m Bruce Nielsen cameo.
[00:00:16] Blue: How are you doing?
[00:00:17] Red: I’m doing great Bruce. I’m cameo Duran
[00:00:20] Blue: And we have with us today Julie Nielsen, who’s my wife. Oh Hello, welcome.
[00:00:27] Red: Thank you.
[00:00:29] Blue: So it’s interesting how we came up with the subject for This this episode so as people who listen the podcast know I’m into Carl Popper and also David Doyle And I particularly I love David Deutch’s four strands, which are what he says the four main theories of science are You know many worlds quantum physics Carl Popper’s theory of knowledge computational theory and evolutionary biological evolutionary theory and So he has this thing that he talks about sometimes called the fun criteria And I never really understood what it was and I didn’t I wasn’t very interested in it It’s and I’m not gonna try to explain it in depth because honestly, I still not sure I understand it But it’s this idea that there’s explicit and inexplicit ideas in your mind and That when you’re having fun That’s a sign that the different ideas are not in conflict because good ideas shouldn’t be in conflict with other good ideas Therefore fun is an epistemological criteria in David Deutch’s mind And I’ve kind of struggled with that for a number of reasons to make sense of it but my wife happened to be looking at a program totally unrelated to any of this and It was called intuitive eating and there’s a book that she was reading on it
[00:01:58] Green: It’s the book is called intuitive eating a revolutionary approach that works by Evelyn tribley and Elise rash
[00:02:06] Blue: She started to describe it to me and I suddenly realized wow This is exactly what David Deutch was talking about with the fun criteria. This this is This is a very strong example that really helped me understand. Okay. Now. I think I get kind of what he was talking about So I wanted to invite my wife on the show to talk about this because I just thought it was really interesting so so intuitive eating is It’s a program. It’s something that has to do with eating so my first impression is oh, it’s some sort of diet But how is it similar or different from a diet?
[00:02:42] Green: They don’t have the same goal In dieting the goal is to lose a certain amount of weight in a certain amount of time But with intuitive eating They’re trying to Solve your food issues once and for all so you eat less naturally and thus you don’t gain as much weight It probably means that you’ll lose weight if you start doing this But you might not If you are currently at your body’s natural healthy weight Then you probably won’t lose weight But if you usually eat more than your body needs you probably will lose weight
[00:03:17] Blue: Interesting. Okay Dieting how what’s the main difference then between dieting and intuitive eating?
[00:03:23] Green: Dieting is about force and if intuitive eating isn’t it’s more about intuition Instantly it’s more appealing because it’s less forceful.
[00:03:35] Blue: Do you have a preference? So you’ve done both you’ve done dieting and you’ve done intuitive eating Do you have a preference between the two?
[00:03:42] Green: There are good things and bad things about both With dieting you can see immediate progress and you can reach your goal fairly quickly if you’re consistent But the more times you do it the less effective it is As your body starts to resist and it’s harder because of all the restrictions
[00:04:01] Red: Yeah, I mean it’s it’s just not very much fun to go on a diet Right you want to eat the things you want to eat and so you constantly are feeling like you’re being Kind of like you’re punishing yourself for some goal that you’ve set for yourself But it has a very punishy
[00:04:17] Green: feel about it. Definitely. Definitely
[00:04:20] Red: So
[00:04:20] Green: so
[00:04:21] Red: then
[00:04:21] Green: if
[00:04:22] Red: intuitive
[00:04:22] Green: eating isn’t a diet, what what is it? Let me just say To go more with what we were just talking about a second ago Intuitive eating is less stressful because it’s less extreme But it’s also a slower process. It’s a lifestyle change. It’s not a quick Fix. So it’s a little bit frustrating when you first start doing it because you’re used to the quick fix of dieting You know you you do a you get b But it’s also a long -term solution. So you don’t have that sort of stop and go of Losing weight gaining weight getting frustrated starting again things like that. It’s it’s gone with the intuitive eating
[00:05:02] Blue: So you’re not going to want to use intuitive eating to lose enough weight to get into that dress for your high school reunion or something
[00:05:10] Green: No So if it isn’t a diet, then what is it? It’s a lifestyle change instead of working against your natural tendencies like you were talking about a minute ago You sort of naturally fight against that Resistance of dieting. So instead of working against the natural tendencies That you have it teaches you how to work with them You learn how to start listening to your body’s natural hunger and fullness cues So you don’t need an outside source telling you what to do If you generally eat more than your body needs this will teach you how to change that If you’ve been using food to cope it draws attention to that to help you solve problems Instead of coping with them with food It encourages you to think of exercise and nutrition as ways to help yourself feel good So you’ll actually want to do them if you’ve noticed as soon as someone tries to force you do something You instantly resist and you’re less willing to do it
[00:06:09] Red: Yeah, I think anyone who’s ever gone on a diet you Somehow you almost instantly are like in front of the cupboard with a bag of potato chips Puritively into your face and you feel like you’re You know But I think that that’s this very common Diety feeling like it pushes you almost into this fight or flight kind of oh my gosh Now I’m it and it’s so funny because it’s all self -imposed.
[00:06:35] Green: Yes. Yes So then how does intuitive eating work we all start out as intuitive eaters Every toddler naturally eats intuitively they eat as much or as little as they need and then they stop So often that concerns the parents when they’re watching. Oh, no, my child just ate a little bit this meal They’re not getting you know, they’re not going to grow properly or oh dear. They’re eating too much. We better restrict their eating Over time not all parents do that, but over time often We learn how to ignore our body signals And then it creates problems.
[00:07:14] Blue: So How does it actually work? Like what is the program? For intuitive eating What is the steps that you would have to take to implement it in your life?
[00:07:24] Green: Okay, so the core principles the first one is they They want you to reject the diet mentality. They say Dieting leads to deprivation deprivation leads to craving and craving leads to binging. So you have that Once again, we’re talking about extremes you’re you’re Depriving yourself then you but you still have these cravings you still resist And so then eventually you break down So they want you to just get rid of that thinking altogether The second one is to honor your hunger pains. Don’t ignore them when your body signals. It’s hungry You show respect for it by eating If you allow yourself to become ravenous then all intentions to eat moderately and consciously are out the window So they just want you to Pay attention to what’s already what your body is already doing The third one is to eat what you really want This is a big part of intuitive eating satisfaction If you eat what you really want You’re more likely to get satisfied and you can more easily stop when you’re full Say you really want potato chips, but you feel too guilty to eat them So instead you eat a plain baked potato, but that’s not going to fill your craving So you go eat another healthy food But you still want the chips So eventually you give in you go and eat the chips and you eat way more than you usually than you originally would have because
[00:08:56] Blue: So in other words, like you end up eating several healthy food quote healthy food
[00:09:01] Green: Yes
[00:09:01] Blue: Then you end up eating the potato chips anyhow because you never actually feel the craving that you had for the potato chips
[00:09:08] Green: Right, you weren’t craving celery. You were craving the potato chips So they’re just saying you can just avoid that all together by eating the potato chips and being done Do
[00:09:18] Blue: you know what there’s there was a This is just a humorous aside, but there was a study Where they they went and they asked people They said, okay, which is which is healthier for you to eat a Hamburger or to eat a hamburger, you know in terms of losing weight Which is healthier for you eating a hamburger or eating a hamburger with carrot sticks And lots and lots of people picked hamburger and carrot sticks And so of course the media is making fun of these people that well, obviously there’s more calories in a hamburger plus carrot sticks Then there is in just a hamburger. So if you want to lose weight, you should really just eat the hamburger If that’s your only two options And you know, and it is funny because it does it does demonstrate that we think of Food as healthy not healthy. We have this kind of concept So somehow the healthy food cancels the unhealthy the hamburgers the unhealthy food The carrots is the healthy food. So that cancels. So that that’s a neutral meal. Whereas a hamburger is a bad meal. Okay Now
[00:10:22] Blue: here’s the thing though for all of them making fun of people like this There’s a little bit of truth to this because if you were to eat a hamburger plus carrots, you would have First you would fulfill the craving for the hamburger, which is what right Why you mean you’re gonna that’s you need to take care of that craving get out of the way Secondly, you’ve got a bunch of your calories now through carrots So you don’t end up with a hamburger sometimes later you’ve fulfilled the craving And so the the thinking isn’t great, but it’s not as bad as the media was making it out to be either So well, and I if you ate the the carrots first You might get a little more full and not eat the whole hamburger. Exactly. Exactly There’s kind of a psychological game there to some degree, right? And that’s why nutritionists talk about Healthy calories versus unhealthy calories. It’s not a very meaningful concept on its own It’s it’s supposed to be about trying to get enough calories that are healthy that when you do allow yourself to fulfill your cravings for the the quote unhealthy calories You you just don’t eat as much of it
[00:11:29] Green: This goes right into what we were just talking about the next the next point is don’t moralize food and eating So you don’t think of chocolate cake as bad and celery is good And you don’t think of yourself as bad or good for the things that you eat As soon as you stop making eating a moral choice You remove the guilt and you’re allowed to eat whatever you want And when you’re allowed you suddenly no longer want it so desperately See And then the next one is feel your fullness You stop halfway through your meal and note your fullness level. Are you still hungry? Are you starting to get full? Do you want to keep eating if you do go for it? Another very important part of intuitive eating is to never let yourself Feel deprived you want to be conscious of what you’re eating and how you’re eating So that you can feel the true need Once your need is fulfilled you no longer want to eat you’re satisfied and you’re content Then at the end of the meal as you’re starting to feel full you remind yourself I can always eat more later if I want This is really important You want to reassure yourself that your needs will always be met that you can trust yourself to do that And that will make it easier for you to quit when you’re full interesting is That
[00:12:47] Red: almost implies That that part of our eating the way that we respond to food has a little bit of Evolutionary panic about where the next meal is going to come from.
[00:13:00] Green: Yeah.
[00:13:00] Red: Yeah,
[00:13:01] Green: exactly So then the last one is have as much of your favorite foods on hand as you’ll want So that you won’t feel deprived So you’re you’re really trying to fight against that feeling Deprivation that makes you feel so desperate It makes you, you know, oh, no, I’m gonna like you were saying evolution I Maybe I won’t ever be able to eat again or in this case. I won’t be able to eat this again I better get it while I can so we’re just trying to get rid of that feeling
[00:13:31] Blue: You know, it’s it’s interesting here though that I’ve sometimes had the opposite experience like If I’m the one who does the grocery shopping for myself or whatever If I buy twinkies and potato chips, which look really good in the store or whatever and come home, then I’ll end up Eating those a lot Whereas I know if I can just sort of get out of the store and not buy those I’ll never really even think about them At least not very much And so I end up just not eating those So I’ve kind of used I mean this this idea that you go ahead and have it on hand if it’s a favorite food It’s interesting. I feel like I’ve kind of done the opposite of that in some cases I feel like in some cases it’s worth
[00:14:13] Green: each time you think of one of those foods that you really love You feel a little bit deprived So even though that is true Even though it’s not around you wish that you had it and you and you feel guilty about having it So you feel like you’re being deprived of it Then when you finally get access to it you lunge for it You give yourself permission Or I mean giving yourself permission decreases your cravings naturally
[00:14:37] Blue: It’s interesting that you say that because I guess I have seen that where like I’ll never buy Potato chips so that I don’t end up eating potato chips But then like I’ll be at an office party and they have potato chips You
[00:14:52] Green: can’t stop eating and I can’t
[00:14:53] Blue: stop eating the potato chips because they’re now in front of me.
[00:14:56] Green: That’s a good point
[00:14:57] Blue: And that happens all the time. Luckily, you’re not in that many circumstances where I there was The place I work right now Back before the pandemic it seemed like people came around with goodies Sharing goodies with each other a lot And that actually started to become a problem because I’ve never died it before I’ve always been able to stay thin without too much effort I there is some effort and as I get older there’s more effort going into that But my strategy isn’t intuitive eating It’s I’m gonna not buy the things that I’m gonna accidentally gorge myself on and it’s it’s worked well enough And I guess I should probably mention that but then like you’re at the office and people come around and they’re trying to offer cookies And I do find That I literally just can’t stop myself, right? it’s you you you kind of mean to Well, I’ll just have one but because I’ve been Forcing myself to not eat cookies or chips or whatever for Months maybe because I just don’t buy them in the first place. You’re saving up I’m I don’t realize I’m saving up But but in fact I end up gorging myself on those things now It’s never really a huge problem as long as You’re you only are in that environment once in a while, but I started to notice that at work They were doing it too often And I started to have some really Some weight gain from that I was like I don’t get weight gain But here I was getting it because I was unable to control myself And again, I’m forcing myself.
[00:16:32] Green: Yes, right and
[00:16:33] Blue: it’s still very undesirable and Just like cameo was saying So I guess I can’t see what you’re saying and even though that hasn’t been my strategy and my strategy has quote worked at least for many years I do see what see your point That because I am depriving myself Even if I mostly never realize I’m doing so That circumstances come up where then I kind of lose control because Because I was depriving myself for too long from something I enjoy eating right
[00:17:05] Green: Okay, and then the last point is if you notice yourself eating when you’re not hungry you stop and ask yourself Oh, I’m not hungry. If I don’t need food What do I need to solve this hunger that I’m feeling? So they’re trying to get you to Be aware of what need you actually have there. This is actually pointing to a need that you do have It’s not hunger. It’s not food. What is it?
[00:17:31] Blue: You know, it’s interesting that you say that I I can’t remember what the source on this is but just recently I was just listening to podcasts and one of the podcasts mentioned this idea that We have this homeostasis or whatever it’s called where we try to we have if we’re Not having a need fulfilled Like we feel bad for some reason, you know, you got chewed out at work or something like that that you’ll literally try to compensate by creating positive feelings through some other means such as Going home and eating a type of ice cream or something like that And I never really thought about that before And because you had talked with me about intuitive eating it kind of jumped to mind when they mentioned that It hadn’t really occurred to me that There are like other reasons to eat. There’s many other reasons to eat Or other reasons people do eat that people do eat.
[00:18:28] Green: Yeah,
[00:18:28] Blue: besides just eating or whatever. Yes I think those are the same things that also push people into addiction um Well, you know because because when people are eating for comfort Or to feel to fill that need that’s that’s the same exact way people use drugs and alcohol Is is for comfort or to you know fill a hole within their their emotional state at that point in time um And food does have a very similar like physical reaction on you can feel your endorphins be released when you’re You know when you’re feeling really nice and full and you’re eating your very favorite thing that makes you feel I’ve comforted and warm Okay, so we talked about other reasons why people Eat besides just the need to actually get nutrition into their body What are reasons that people eat that have nothing to do with getting nutrition into their body?
[00:19:25] Green: They eat when they’re stressed or when they’re feeling bad They eat because they see something they like and it’s there Um, they eat because they’re bored they eat to reward themselves because they deserve it
[00:19:40] Blue: I know that I have to admit I feel like I eat because i’m bored Especially during during the pandemic I find myself going to the refrigerator just to take a break from having to concentrate on work Luckily the refrigerator is full of some fairly low calorie foods You know little yogurts or something like that So I think that’s why that hasn’t translated into weight gain for me But it seems like I do that all the time that I’m just bored with my job for the moment I just went through a long meeting. I can’t stand it anymore. So
[00:20:15] Green: you’re rewarding yourself because you deserve it
[00:20:19] Blue: So I go get up and I go to the refrigerator and I open it up and There’s these yogurts and I think oh, I’ll have a your string cheese or you know Something that’s really quick and easy and oh, I’m gonna have that and and then I end up kind of grazing all day long Just eating a little bit here and there
[00:20:37] Red: should you not ever eat to reward yourself?
[00:20:41] Green: Of course you can eat for other reasons than hunger this program is all about reasonableness But it’s also about consciousness and deliberateness Their motto is if you don’t love it don’t eat it if you do love it savor it so if you’re If you’re eating something for fun then enjoy every minute of it Because even if you’re eating what you really love if you’re in a hurry or if you’re not paying attention Then you’re not getting the full enjoyment out of eating it and that’s why you’re eating it in the first place So stop what you’re doing sit down close your eyes and revel in it
[00:21:20] Red: So that’s interesting So jimmy johns, you know we before the pandemic when I worked in the office jimmy johns was something we ordered regularly And I actually really enjoy their sandwiches You know I figured out the way to make them that I just really enjoy the flavor But I don’t think their cookies are very good, you know So the cookies would always come and I’d always Say no, I don’t I don’t want a cookie and I think the perception was I was on a diet and I wasn’t eating the cookie But I I eat cookies all the time, but I’m not gonna spend my my caloric like Options on a cookie that doesn’t make me really happy Yeah, just save it for later when I can have a cookie that actually like Makes me really really happy. Yeah,
[00:22:03] Green: that’s perfect. You’re an intuitive eater right there. I’m an intuitive eater
[00:22:08] Blue: Do you know that’s actually why I never order a soft drink or rarely Sometimes I like have an actual craving for a soft drink and I’ll order seven up or something like that But I feel like it’s a really high sugary food that I don’t get a ton of enjoyment out of
[00:22:25] Red: Right, low value.
[00:22:27] Blue: Yeah, if I’m going to you know, use my sugar budget That’s probably the wrong term for intuitive eating, but I’m gonna use my sugar budget It’s it’s gonna be on You know a chocolate dipped cookie or cake or ice cream
[00:22:42] Red: Yeah, something something that just really makes you happy, right? So can you tell us about your actual experience with the program? First, how
[00:22:49] Green: long
[00:22:49] Red: have
[00:22:50] Green: you been doing this? I actually once I I listened to the book actually not really read it, but Once I listened to it. I actually discovered I have a lot of Intuitive eating practices already built in like we were talking about I don’t order soda We go out to eat or I think about do I really want that cookie or would I rather have just the sandwich? So I did that already. So I’ve had some of the same experience with bruce that It’s been fairly easy to keep my weight off Because I did things like that, but I Didn’t do it as much as I could So maybe maybe in the last year I’ve been paying more attention to you know What what I’m doing when an eating option comes up so um I I really have Liked it. It’s very freeing if it feels compared to dieting. It feels so good to just Eat whatever you want, you know, oh, I really want that. Oh, I can have it. Okay and then I know that I can stop because I tried it I ate till I didn’t want it anymore and then I quit and I was completely satisfied. I’m not faking it I really was satisfied and I really didn’t want it So it’s wonderful actually so
[00:24:11] Blue: I I’ve always wondered about this because There are certain foods that if they’re in front of me I will like gorge myself, which is why I try not to have them around and Particularly, I mean, let me use the potato chip example. If I start to eat potato chips It’s hard to stop if you finally have to go like seal the bag or something like that. So you got incentive to to stop How does intuitive eating deal with that? It’s got to be a fairly normal experience for most people Um,
[00:24:43] Green: you don’t have to worry about portion size You don’t have to worry about calorie count because you automatically regulate your eating without effort So I really like that about this program In order to get to that point though, you need to heal your food cravings You need to get rid of this intense yearning that you have for some foods like you were saying your potato chips Um, so what they do they recommend that you make a list of your favorite foods And then you focus on one at a time to heal your craving for that food
[00:25:14] Blue: Focus in on one at a time meaning like you intentionally eat The supposedly bad food that that you enjoy.
[00:25:22] Green: Yes
[00:25:23] Blue: to reduce craving for it.
[00:25:24] Green: Yes. Yes So my number one favorite food was chocolate covered almonds So I went and I bought a huge jar of them.
[00:25:35] Blue: I can testify. That’s her number one favorite food
[00:25:37] Green: I love chocolate period, but I love chocolate almonds even more. So every time I went about this huge jar Every time I was physically hungry I would go and get my chocolate almonds So I’m following intuitive eating like I’m supposed to I waited till I was hungry to do it But I would eat them first. I would as soon as it was lunchtime or something I would eat them first and I would just Eat as eat as fast as I could and I barely even tasted them and all I could think about was how much I wanted them But slowly over time my cravings started to calm I wasn’t as rushed and I didn’t feel quite so anxious about eating them I started to pay more attention to the taste I Eat for a minute and then I check in with myself and ask do I want to keep eating these or am I done for now? And at first the answer was always I want to keep eating these and Even when I started to want them less. I still Kept eating because I’d felt deprived for so long.
[00:26:40] Green: I just wanted to be able to do what I hadn’t been able to do But eventually things got less intense And when I’d check in with myself I’d notice they weren’t quite as peeling and I’d be able to put them away once I’d had enough for that meal So then each time this happened I felt a little less deprived and I ate a little less And then I started noticing I’d rather have real food at the beginning of the meal And then have the chocolate almonds at the end Then one day I picked up the jar I looked at the chocolate almonds and thought oh never mind These don’t appeal to me today. And that’s the last time I ever ate a chocolate almond Did this day I still can’t walk by them at the store without thinking. Oh, no, thanks I think I went a little too far with that food The other foods I’ve healed cravings for are still appealing to me I still like them and I still eat them. I just don’t have intense cravings for them anymore I think the chocolate almonds were the big breakthrough for me They were the first thing I used to heal my relationship with food I think I’ll always feel differently about them Really, you know, that’s sort of strong aversion to them But for everything else every other food I worked on it doesn’t have that aversion now I just eat food and I enjoy it without that intense overreaction I used to have
[00:28:01] Blue: I can tell you that um, she has complained to me a number of times that Oh, I hate the fact that I don’t like chocolate almonds anymore. I used to love them so much You know, I don’t like it’s works too well. Yeah
[00:28:15] Red: Not even variations like white chocolate almonds or what about those Sea salt chocolate almonds from Trader Joe’s if you had those those are really good I
[00:28:25] Green: haven’t I haven’t I still love chocolate and I still eat it and I still love Chocolate with almonds in it like, you know, her she kisses with almonds or something But so I don’t have an aversion to to either thing, but Just I just ate them and ate them and ate them and I loved them and it was so great And I don’t love them anymore
[00:28:52] Red: But that it’s so fascinating to me. I don’t know that I have Any food cravings as strong as what you’re you’re describing and maybe because I’ve never Really, um restricted myself from from foods as a as a rule like I It’s never been an approach that I’ve taken towards food So I maybe I’ve never built up that level of craving, but I am really interested to try this You know, there are a couple of things that I’m tempted to overeat or or find, you know, like monster cheese. I just love monster cheese. Um And it’s one of those things that I sometimes feel like I eat more than I should and so I’m now I’m pretty interested to try this And with caution, obviously
[00:29:36] Blue: Yeah, don’t overdo it. That’s the Oh, so know that you so I should mention that Jolene has I mentioned Jolene’s done dieting in the past. She was actually quite successful at it I was surprised that she would have like a goal weight and She would like reach it really fast She she’s been very successful with diets in the past So what do you think of dieting now that you’ve experienced both? Like do you did it change the way you think of dieting? Do you see dieting as a negative now or is it right for certain circumstances?
[00:30:14] Green: I have had good experiences with dieting in the past Um About 12 years ago. I had a severe clinical depression and after medication and about A year and a half of counseling. I was in a really good place And I had gained a lot of weight during that time during that depression Coping with it with food. So after I went through the You know, I went on the medication and I went through the counseling. I felt really good So I joined Jenny Craig and I lost 42 pounds in a few months And I’ve kept most of it off I noticed that That’s a good that was the first time I had ever been on a real diet And I was really motivated and they they cut you down to so few calories that it’s very easy to lose and um I was it was fast. It was really motivated because I saw progress so fast. So I kept going and it was really fun It was it was an actually a fun thing.
[00:31:12] Blue: It actually did come across like it was fun.
[00:31:14] Green: Yeah And then you just see yourself shrinking and anyway, it feels really good Jenny
[00:31:19] Blue: Craig like coaches you like they get they’re like cheerleaders. They get so excited for every improvement and They
[00:31:26] Green: make you feel so good. You want to spend all your time with them because they
[00:31:29] Blue: make you feel so good And and so it was actually uh It it it wasn’t just that she lost weight and that was positive It it was a motivating feel -good experience from what I could see
[00:31:42] Green: right which kept me going on it so that I succeeded at it but um I think the reason I’ve kept the weight off all of that time is first of all I’m not coping with those intense painful feelings anymore of food and second of all I Have those I do have a lot of natural intuitive eating tendencies anyway So a lot of times according to a lot of research that you read um Dieters just gain the weight back because it’s a It’s so extreme that you just have to just you know React to it and stop as soon as you can you just react and go back
[00:32:21] Blue: You reached your goal way you can get in that dress for the high school reunion Now I get to reward myself that I was successful. I was so good.
[00:32:29] Green: I deserve it. Yeah, then
[00:32:30] Blue: you get it all back and
[00:32:31] Green: right you
[00:32:33] Blue: you got it from what you Two months of torturing yourself for one good night, and then
[00:32:38] Green: right
[00:32:39] Blue: you’re right back on to the way you were
[00:32:41] Green: right, so Dieting is not a good solution It’s a it’s a temporary thing And I feel like if I hadn’t had those natural tendencies Um, and also if I hadn’t gotten rid of the real Issue that I probably would have gained the weight back So over the years I’ve had I’ve had a few times where I did sort of a little mini diet to lose like five pounds or something but The more times you diet the harder it is to lose the weight and your body is resisting and it doesn’t want to let go And it’s hard So finally you get to the point where you just think i’m never going to go on another diet I just can’t get myself to do that and once you hit that point It’s the ideal place to decide to become an intuitive eater because you’re willing to get rid of the diet mentality and you are eager to Do something to maintain a good weight for the rest of your life this easier more comfortable and works
[00:33:38] Blue: So I mentioned I’ve never really been on a diet. So I’m the wrong one to talk about this My experience with dieting was actually watching my wife and it came across to me as a fairly positive experience And that was why I kind of asked this question because I I I wasn’t sure that your message is that dieting is wrong or bad or something like that Maybe
[00:34:02] Green: repetitive dieting is bad. Okay.
[00:34:05] Blue: All right. I’m just trying to get a nuanced view here And you know, I I know that there’s People who would probably disagree with that. I think that there are people who would say dieting is bad It didn’t seem like it was a super negative experience when I watched you do it Right. It seemed like it was a fairly positive experience. I’m just kind of trying to figure out Where does dieting fit into the big scheme of things really,
[00:34:31] Green: you know, I should probably bring up that After I finished and I hit my goal weight. I quit going there every week and using their food But once in a while I would want to buy some of their food because it’s really good So I would just stop in and buy some food And it wasn’t as fun they the people that used to work there weren’t there anymore Everybody was still really nice and welcoming, but I didn’t feel like they were like, you know My best friend and they would do anything for me And I was so wonderful because you know, I didn’t feel that support anymore So so I think of a lot of it had to do with who I was working with unfortunately.
[00:35:10] Blue: Oh interesting That kind of I mean, I see what you’re saying It’s you got something out of the diet, but it may not have been specifically the diet It may have been the support and the It
[00:35:23] Green: was probably everything together. I think it was everything
[00:35:26] Blue: Cam, you got any thoughts on on this part?
[00:35:29] Red: I do because I’m I’m definitely an anti diet person. Um You know, I and and it’s interesting like their focus on being able to eat whatever you want Because I you know, I don’t I don’t think of the what I eat as dieting But I definitely target what I would consider healthier foods I you know, I And I try and figure out combinations of healthier food that are very very delicious because Because I I kind of feel like our modern relationship With sugar is It’s not natural to humans like we’ve never really been presented with it before and so it’s Kind of an unusual thing that we maybe need to teach ourselves to deal with sugar Easily accessible sugar Is not that it’s not something that humans have ever really had to deal with or adapt to before
[00:36:30] Blue: Right. Um,
[00:36:31] Red: you know, I it’s it’s not a natural state for people. Um, You know, because it’s difficult nature doesn’t make sugar plentifully without Without the artificial our ability to create artificial sugar essentially or to and Because of some random societal things that happened, you know, the the rise of the sugar beat Is a political thing That ended up resulting in sugar flooding American nutrition. I mean, it’s it’s this really interesting societal thing that’s changed People’s relationships with food, you know, and so my approach to the way I eat is Is to try and Learn to have a relationship with food that’s not dependent on Some of these artificially created things, you know that Because you ate something three or four or ten times I I just think that people have been Taught a little bit by themselves to believe that they care about food that they don’t necessarily wouldn’t necessarily Except in the way that society has just flooded sugar on on to American food is really based on sugar Humans are actually made to crave sugar, but it it’s really rarely Occuring at the level we have it at, you know, it’s just it doesn’t happen. So I’ve just taught myself to find a lot of enjoyment in In things that are would be considered healthier So that I try and just eat a lot more of those as as just a matter of course And I don’t think of it as dieting. I just think of it as Enjoying things that my body is more naturally adapted to to process
[00:38:25] Blue: Interesting I should also mention I said I have never dieted that is not true now. I think about it I’ve never dieted for weight loss But I have had numerous times. I’ve gone on special diets for You know health related reasons in fact, you may remember the one where I used to do like a salad for lunch with chicken on the top and Something like that. I had a certain diet I was trying to follow in hopes that it would help a certain health situation And
[00:38:56] Red: so I actually do remember that because you complained a lot of it Yes
[00:39:02] Blue: And and you know what that’s what I was going to say is that I can’t remember any of the times that I’ve dieted Even though it was not for weight loss reasons that I enjoyed it It was something I wanted to get over as quickly as I can The terrifying thing was oh, wow, what if this like really works and then I have to follow this diet forever You know, it was it wasn’t really a sustainable circumstance. I I tried a gluten -free diet once That was just awful You know what I think what I found from the gluten -free diet was that there is absolutely nothing in The universe that is similar to wheat You know
[00:39:44] Red: Well, and you know when you just described this salad with with chicken on it for lunch like I I had this yummy reaction in my mouth Because one of my really favorite things is this particular Salad that I’ve you know made for myself that has this great combinations of flavors that are just really delight in And I definitely had had yummy reaction Like my mouth was watering thinking about having a salad with chicken Do
[00:40:10] Blue: you know it was actually really good like the first time and maybe even Well,
[00:40:16] Red: and you know that’s actually an interesting point because There’s a part of eating both crucial to for a lot of people to enjoyment, you know, we we have a tendency to have things that we really like but If you feed somebody the same thing, you know, and this is you with your chocolate covered almonds If you only get the one thing all the time You will ultimately just be so tired of having it
[00:40:43] Blue: Right,
[00:40:44] Red: right, which is an interesting dynamic for us because we do have a tendency to both Want things to be comfortable, but also just almost want infinite variety at the same time
[00:40:55] Blue: Yes, you know, that’s something that Jolene and I always Kind of laugh about is we always end up going to like the same Restaurants and ordering the same food Now we do have variety like we’ve got several restaurants and each restaurant has a certain favorite dish Right, so we don’t go to the same restaurant every single time. So that way we’re getting variety that way But there’s there’s always this You know, maybe I think I’m going to try something different at this particular restaurant Not the one food that really attracted me here in the first place And I’m disappointed like 90 percent of the time when I do it. So it’s really hard Like I know I went to this restaurant. We just went to this restaurant And I know the reason why I wanted to go here was because I particularly like the pulled pork here You know or something along those lines and so it’s almost hard to Go against that and yet you’re right if if you went and you did that every single time You just get sick to the fact if you gotta do it too much You would lose interest in that food altogether Which is apparently what intuitive eating uses to overcome food cravings is that you give it to yourself enough That you lose interest in craving it anymore
[00:42:07] Green: And if you do it while you’re distracted it takes longer to get tired of it
[00:42:12] Red: That kind of bored habitual eating where you’re eating responsively rather than eating And focusing on what you’re eating and thinking about it. So if you’re using it Both as you’re crutch, but then being distracted about the way you’re using it
[00:42:28] Blue: There is something disappointing about eating a food you really like But you’re in a hurry or you’re doing it for a bad reason, you know, I really love milkshakes But like you make you can either stop and savor the milkshake and then you really enjoy it Or you might like finish it because you were on the phone and you’re like, wait I
[00:42:51] Green: missed it. I actually missed
[00:42:55] Blue: Right So and there’s something to that This idea of savoring in fact, juliet and I we we do something we call a walmart date Where we’ll walk down to walmart because we’re fairly close and we’ll buy a wrap or something there and then we’ll like eat it on the way back and It’s it’s if you were to eat the whole wrap, it would probably be quite a few calories But we’re splitting it between ourselves. So it’s not too bad And I’ll like eat it kind of slowly on the way home, you know We’re walking home and I’m just trying to just enjoy it as as we go And that actually Seems to work because I usually I don’t have any Hunger cravings by the time I’m done where I might if I’m if I’m just paying attention to something else
[00:43:40] Red: Right.
[00:43:41] Blue: So it is interesting. There seems to be a huge psychological element to all this
[00:43:46] Red: There really is There is I don’t know if you guys are familiar with the slow food movement
[00:43:53] Blue: No, no, I think I’ve heard the term, but I don’t really know what it is.
[00:43:57] Red: It’s it’s like a Kind of more of a dining experience But it’s patterned off of both french and italians like really dragging out meal times And so you go and you you have essentially this two hour meal But where you’re not eating a whole ton of food, but you’re really savoring the entire meal experience And you know these small Almost top us small plate type of but it kind of really stretched out over this long experience So that you’re eating very slowly Mm
[00:44:33] Blue: -hmm. Is is that Related to why they think French people don’t have an obesity problem to the degree that americans do I guess I’ve heard that somewhere that here they they eat these fattening foods foods that we would consider Quote bad for you and yet they don’t really have the same level of problem that we do
[00:44:53] Red: I have heard that same thing, but I I don’t have any no
[00:44:57] Blue: data No
[00:44:58] Red: data to back it may be a myth. It
[00:45:00] Blue: may be a myth
[00:45:03] Red: I will say that you know the the That savoriness or that That food that makes you kind of want to come back to it that makes you want to go back to a restaurant um, I used to work for a great restaurant owner and And he said that the key to a restaurant success is having at least three Things on a menu that have that response for people that make them That you wake up and say, oh, do you know where I want to go to dinner? I want to go to that place and have that thing that if you don’t Create that desire in in somebody for your food. It’s very very difficult to ever have a success for restaurant No matter what else you do
[00:45:45] Blue: How do you actually create that desire? Is it just a very good
[00:45:49] Red: food?
[00:45:50] Blue: Yeah There’s actually an interesting point here, which is um Taste what we enjoy eating recipes are hard to vary right there They’re putting a little bit too much of one thing or a little too too little and it ruins the experience
[00:46:08] Red: I was
[00:46:10] Blue: thinking about a waffle of it. Do you like waffle love? We love waffle love here
[00:46:13] Red: Uh, I don’t go to it very often, but at the times I’ve been it’s been delightful So
[00:46:18] Blue: apparently so like up on their wall, they have this a story of how waffle love came to be So it was some guy who I guess was local here by you or something and I can’t remember what it was. He lost his job And so he decided to see if he could make his interest in cooking pay off And so he started to make waffles and he apparently experimented For for I think it was years on his family Until he found a recipe for waffles that they kept starting to demand. Oh, I want that one I want that recipe for waffles And he says that it took him years to find the right combination And then when his family member extended family members were starting to say you’ve you’ve got you’ve got to get this for me You’ve got to do it that for me again. That was when he realized. Okay. I’ve got something here I found the secret recipe that is going to cause people to keep craving and coming back for this So I’ve always thought that was very interesting is that that’s a concept from the David Deutsch Popper never called it hard to bury it. He called it improbable So it’s you know, it’s hard to just find by chance but This concept of hard to variness applies to food and recipes even though it’s a purely Procule thing So, you know, there’s no objectively better food But there is foods that you actually do enjoy more, but Only if you can mix it with variety.
[00:47:50] Red: Oh, yes, right. Yes. Is this for everyone? I’m I’m gonna try it But is this something everyone should be using? They
[00:47:58] Green: do mention in the book that there are There are some cases where you shouldn’t do it yet. So to speak where you need to do some preliminary work first so like one of those would be if you had an eating disorder where you had a A Body image issue and you can’t see that your 90 pound body isn’t healthy and isn’t well So you wouldn’t be able to Rely on your natural instincts in that way instincts in that way Because
[00:48:29] Blue: you’ve overridden them at that
[00:48:30] Green: you’ve overridden them. Yes So you would need to work with a therapist or a nutritionist or something first to get that resolved so that then you can start listening to your body again another case would be Um, if you starve yourself enough your body actually turns off its hunger pains So you can’t wait for them to tell you to go eat because they turn off So you would need to again work with somebody Um until your body starts producing them again And then you could do intuitive eating
[00:48:59] Blue: because your tune of eating relies on those signals in the body It’s basically built on the idea that the signals are generally correct Yes, right. Maybe more so than if we’re trying to intentionally Course ourselves into some sort of specific diet,
[00:49:15] Red: right that
[00:49:16] Blue: what you’re craving is actually your body’s done It does a fairly good job of telling you what it is. You should be eating But if you’re if you’ve got some sort of psychological health issue Those signals are no longer reliable. They’re now problematic. Right.
[00:49:31] Green: So,
[00:49:32] Blue: okay, that makes sense All right Well, thank you for coming. Sure.
[00:49:37] Green: Thanks for having me
[00:49:38] Blue: And uh, thank you cameo and we’ll see you in two weeks The theory of anything podcast could use your help We have a small but loyal audience and we’d like to get the word out about the podcast to others So others can enjoy it as well to the best of our knowledge We’re the only podcast that covers all four strands of david doich’s philosophy as well as other interesting subjects If you’re enjoying this podcast, please give us a five star rating on apple podcasts This can usually be done right inside your podcast player Or you can google the theory of anything podcast apple or something like that Some players have their own rating system and giving us a five star rating on any rating system would be helpful If you enjoy a particular episode, please consider tweeting about us or linking to us on facebook or other social media to help get the word out If you are interested in financially supporting the podcast We have two ways to do that. The first is via our podcast host site anchor Just go to anchor.fm slash four dash strands f o u r dash s t r a n d s There’s a support button available that allows you to do reoccurring donations If you want to make a one -time donation go to our blog, which is four strands dot org There is a donation button there that uses paypal. Thank you
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