Episode 82: Popper’s Ratchet

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Transcript

[00:00:08]  Blue: Welcome to the theory of anything podcast. Hey, Peter. Hello, Bruce. How you doing today? Good. Hey, we’ve got an episode that I’m excited about as an epistemology geek. I don’t know if anybody else is going to be excited about it, but we’ve been kind of building up to this episode and the last one where we talked about easy to variance versus ad hocness and why I preferred the concept of ad hocness because it was more objective and and in that episode I gave examples of easy to vary explanations that were nonetheless empirically testable, such as spontaneous generation. And I also showed that there are no hard to vary explanations, not even things like quantum mechanics, which has got to be the most hard to vary explanation or Darwinian evolution. There’s none out there that can’t be easily varied in the sense that they actually are easily varied. Quantum mechanics is constantly easily varied around trying to explain or explain away many worlds, for example. So I said in a future podcast, I’m going to argue that there are no theories so easy to vary that with the proper critical attitude, you can’t decide to make it testable and therefore actually test it. And I didn’t back in the previous episode explain how that was possible. I’m going to make good on that promise today.

[00:01:30]  Red: Now this this episode is kind of your magnum opus, right? Is that how I’m thinking of it? Are you sure it’s just you’re sure you can do this in one episode? Maybe we should make this like a three parter seven? I don’t know.

[00:01:43]  Blue: So I don’t know if I’d call it a magnum opus or not, but it is I’m going to reveal something in this episode that I think is one of the single most interesting aspects of popper that I don’t think I have ever heard anyone talk about. Like it is just totally missing from discussions about critical rationalism. I’m going to show it come straight from popper. Like it’s not something I’m making up, right? But it’s it’s an aspect of popper that I think is super important and in fact critical to understanding critical rationalism. And it just gets no publicity publicity at all. So I’m really excited to reveal that and to say here’s this thing from popper that you missed that that’s really exciting. So maybe we can take it from that standpoint. Okay. Okay. So let me just do a quick review from our previous episodes. So in the last podcast, I challenged the idea that easy to vary of easy to variness on the grounds that it is subjective. So everyone when they talk about is this explanation easy to vary or not? They judge for themselves subjectively if their theory counts as easy to vary versus hard to vary. And not surprisingly, everybody thinks their personal theories are hard to vary and everybody thinks the theories they disagree with are easy to vary. I also challenged the idea that we can always equate a good explanation to be hard to vary and a bad explanation to be easy to vary. There are other reasons for an explanation to be bad or good besides deutches to quote however, I offered Karl Popper’s alternative to easy to varyness, which is ad hocness.

[00:03:25]  Blue: And I really think when it comes down to it, David Deutch’s term easy to vary was meant to mean poppers concept of ad hocness, but he thought it was an easier to understand term. And I think unfortunately it’s a it is maybe somewhat easier to get an intuitive feeling for what it means that then the term ad hocness, but it turned out to be a subjective term instead of Popper where ad hocness was a very objective term. Okay.

[00:03:55]  Red: That’s a big aha moment for me there. I can see the connection now between easy to varyness and ad hocness.

[00:04:03]  Blue: But

[00:04:03]  Red: easy to varyness could be seen as also more specific too, right?

[00:04:08]  Blue: It can be.

[00:04:09]  Red: So

[00:04:10]  Blue: I think the issue is that Deutch defined easy to varyness as that the explanation is barely connected to the details of the phenomenon. That’s a quote from the beginning of infinity. But when you really talk to people about easy to varyness, they don’t treat it only as that. They treat it as something far wider, right? And I think what they really sort of intuitively have in mind is ad hocness. I think that’s right. And so I think the two concepts were really meant to be the same concept. Now, the opposite of that hard to varyness is what Popper called boldness. It’s the idea that your theory is taking risks. And again, Popper’s version is more objective. Okay. Where Deutch is might be easier to get an intuition for. So that’s why maybe both are useful. Like if you’re just trying to give somebody intuition, referring to easy to vary versus hard to vary might be the way to go. But if you’re trying to get the person to really understand objectively, what does this mean in practice? You really need to go with the Popper version because it’s objective. Okay. Or at least this is my argument. So I showed the two concepts were strongly related that ad hocness in some sense subsumes easy to varyness, but in a way where it’s objective. It’s objective to tell if our theory is ad hoc or not. This saves Deutch’s concept of easy to varyness by subsuming it. This is an important thing that you’ll often hear me say where I’ll say critical rationalism subsumes induction. When you talk to a lot of critical rationalists, they’ll act as if induction is completely worthless as an idea because Popper disproved it or something along those lines. Right.

[00:05:45]  Blue: And I don’t think that’s the right way to look at these ideas. Induction played such a critical role in the enlightenment, in how we thought about science. And it would be a mistake to downplay the important role that it actually played, right? And I think this idea that critical rationalism subsumes it or at least attempts to subsume it, largely subsumes it. There may be some question as if it fully subsumes it or not. That’s a discussion for another time. I think that this idea helps us understand that a lot of these ideas are okay to have all at the same time, right? As long as you understand how they’re actually connected. So there’s nothing wrong with easy to veriness, but I do want to suggest that when you really get down to is my theory easy to vary, the very first thing you should do is turn to the concept of ad hocness and say, is it independently testable? And if it is, then it’s, and then determine if it is or it isn’t. So the idea though is that ad hocness subsumes easy to veriness into something that is both more expansive and also more testable. Thus it is a better theory. Okay. Just like Popper’s critical rationalism is a better theory than induction as a theory, even though induction’s got some truth to it. I think when I say induction has some truth to it, I mean, the truth to it was exactly insofar as it was an approximation of critical rationalism. So that’s the concept of subsuming something. So Carl Popper explains what ad hocness is. He says a good theory is not ad hoc. The idea of ad hocness and it’s opposite, which may be term boldness are very important.

[00:07:27]  Blue: Ad hoc explanations are explanations which are not independently testable. Independently that is of the effect to be explained. They can be had for the asking and are therefore of little theoretical interest. This is from objective knowledge pages 15 to 16. By the way, I’m going to be reusing a lot of the same quotes I did from the previous episode, but I’m going to be putting them into a different context this time. This is why ad hocness is unlike easy to variness, not subjective. Your theory either has other independently testable consequences that is to say it has reach to use the Deutsche in term or it doesn’t. It is up to you to work out what they are. Going on quoting from Popper, we require that a new theory should be independently testable. That is to say, apart from explaining all the explicanda that which we are trying to explain, which the new theory was designed to explain, it must have new and testable consequences, preferably consequences of a new kind. It must lead to the prediction of phenomena which have not so far been observed. This requirement seems to me indispensable, since without it our new theory might be ad hoc. For it is always possible to produce a theory to fit any given set of explicanda. That was from Conjection and Refutation, page 327. And it does sound a lot like hard to variness. It does. In fact, it sounds so much like it that you can almost see that Deutsche took it from those quotes, that he has taken that concept from Popper straight from Popper and then put his own words to it that he thought were a little easier to make sense of.

[00:09:11]  Blue: Okay, so I argued that easy to variness captures three intermingled issues as if they are a single issue, which is probably why it is a little easier to intuit because you don’t have to break it out so much. So it captures how precisely the theory is stated via axiomatic statements that make it easy to see if you are simultaneously changing the theory on the fly. And I had quote from Popper in the previous episode where he talked about that. It also includes how much reach the explanation has due to number one. And I specified here reach by reach I explicitly mean empirical reach, how testable the theory is due to having consequences that we can check in the real world that weren’t part of the problem we were trying to solve. Okay, and then the third thing it intermingles is whether or not the person defending the theory is willing to ad hoc save the theory from a refuting counter example by introducing untestable auxiliary hypotheses. So similar to number two, your auxiliary hypotheses are also expected to have reach. Okay, now you can see how these three things are clearly all intermingled. Number two is based on number one and number three is taking it to the next level. Not only does the main theory have to be independently testable, but you’re not allowed to save it through an auxiliary hypothesis unless the auxiliary hypothesis is itself independently testable. Okay, or that is to say not at home.

[00:10:39]  Blue: In other words, easy to vary versus hard to vary is partially about the nature of the theory and partially about the critical attitude of the defender of the theory that is to say their willingness to introduce untestable auxiliary hypotheses to save the theory from refutation. I then argued that while number one, number two, explain what counts as ad hocness, number three, the choice to hold yourself to not use ad hoc explanations was the most important of the three criteria. And I equated this to having a proper critical attitude or as Popper put it, I propose that the empirical method shall be characterized as a method that preclude that excludes precisely those ways of evading falsification. That’s from logic of scientific discovery pages 19 and 20. I argued that the critical attitude that is to say the choice not to use ad hoc ad hoc explanations was the most important factor because all theories have places where the theory is underdeveloped or a bit vague or where we just can’t test it yet. So example, quantum mechanics has this part where you can’t test if the other worlds exist or not today. So there was no such thing as a theory, no matter how specific and testable that it is, that couldn’t be easily varied by its defenders by just simply picking the parts of the theory that were a bit vague or that there were what I called degrees of freedom where it just wasn’t testable yet. And by introducing ad hoc auxiliary hypotheses or arbitrarily playing with the degrees of freedom of the theory if they choose not to have the right critical attitude.

[00:12:17]  Blue: And then I said in a future podcast, I’m going to argue the inverse of this, there is no theory so easy to vary that with the proper critical attitude, you can’t decide to axiomatize it in such a way that it becomes testable and has reach. This is what we’re going to talk about today now. So let’s go back to the example that comes from the beginning infinity that Deutsch uses to explain his concept of easy to varyness. So from page 21 of beginning of infinity, he says, for whenever it is easy to vary an explanation without changing its predictions, one could just as easily vary it to make different predictions if they were needed. On page 22 he says, when theories are easily variable in the sense I have described, experimental testing is almost useless for correcting their errors. I call such theories bad explanations. However, I showed at the time there was in the previous episode, there was something wrong with this, we took spontaneous generation as an example of an easy to vary theory and we showed that science had in fact tested and falsified that theory, despite it being an easy to vary theory. In fact, we struggled to find any examples of easy to vary theories that couldn’t be tested or falsified. But what about this myth of Hades and Persephone that Deutsch is using? Can we do that same trick just like we did with spontaneous generation? Could we actually falsify the myth of Hades and Persephone? That would be the key thing I would want to be able to do. Now this may sound silly, like who cares? It’s just obviously a myth.

[00:13:49]  Blue: It’s so completely as an explanation disconnected from trying to explain the seasons that it almost seems like it’s worthless to try to falsify it. Deutsch goes on to explain why he thinks it’s kind of worthless to try to falsify it. So on pages somewhere between pages 19 and 22 here, he says, but even testable explanatory theories cannot be the crucial ingredient that makes the difference between no progress and progress. For they too have always been common. Consider, for example, the ancient Greek myth of explaining the annual onset of winter. Long ago, Hades got of the underworld kidnapped and raped Persephone, goddess of spring. When Persephone’s mother, Demeter, goddess of the earth and agriculture negotiated a contract with her daughter’s release, which specified that Persephone would marry Hades and eat a magic seed that would compel her to visit him once a year thereafter. Whenever Persephone was away fulfilling this obligation, Demeter became sad and would command the world to become cold and bleak so that nothing could grow. That myth, though comprehensively false, does constitute an explanation of seasons. By the way, this is where I just want to point out. I’ve often had pit rats online saying that explanation that they don’t like doesn’t explain. It doesn’t take much to be an explanation. There’s a difference between being an explanation and being a deep explanation. And notice that Deutsch is admitting this does count as an ex constitute an explanation of the seasons. But then he goes on to say it is a claim because it’s a claim about the reality that brings about our experience of winter. It is also eminently testable. If the cause of winter is Demeter’s periodic sadness, then winter must happen everywhere on earth at the same time.

[00:15:36]  Blue: Therefore, in the ancient Greek, if the ancient Greeks had known that a warm growing season occurs in Australia at the very moment when, as they believe Demeter is at her sadness, they could have inferred there was something wrong with their explanation of seasons. The reason those myths are so easily variable is that their details are barely connected to the details of the phenomena. That freedom to make drastic changes in their mythical explanations of seasons is the fundamental flaw in them. It is the reason that mythmaking, in general, is not an effective way to understand the world. And that is so whether the myths are testable or not. For whenever it is easy to vary an explanation without changing its predictions, one could just as easily vary it to make different predictions if they were needed. For example, if the ancient Greeks had discovered that the seasons of the northern and southern hemispheres are out of phase, they would have had a choice of countless slight variants of the myth that would be consistent with that observation. One would be that when Demeter is sad, she banishes warmth from her vicinity and it has to go elsewhere into the northern southern hemisphere. Similarly, slight variants of Persephone’s explanation could account just as well for seasons that were marked by green rainbows or seasons that happened once a week or sporadically or not at all, again, from beginning of infinity between pages 19 and 22. So to do each, myths and scientific explanations are fundamentally different sorts of things.

[00:17:14]  Blue: While there is definitely truth to this, in our last episode we show that one could have a bad explanation for an entirely different reason not related to this problem of having the explanation be only barely connected to the phenomena. One could be making a circular argument, for example. We talked about this idea of from the argument the dean made that defining loving violence as effectively anyone who is a non -libertarian, you then have this perfectly circular argument that could never be defeated. That would be an example of an ad hoc argument, but it’s really hard to say that it’s an easy to vary argument. Or using an all -purpose argument. We talked about selectively declaring any theory that you don’t like as invalid due to quote not explaining all the way down, when in fact no theory does that. Therefore if you don’t like the theory you say well it doesn’t explain and therefore all evidence is just correlations, but if you do like the theory, the theory that in this case wasn’t liked was IQ theory, this idea there’s a G factor, a general intelligence factor, any evidence that is in favor of it that would be a problem for the refutation of the competing theory, Brett’s theory in this case, is immediately dismissed as that’s just a correlation. But then when we’re talking about something that they do agree with, say does smoking cause cancer, oh yes that’s not just a correlation, that’s an explanation and you can see how this would very quickly become an all -purpose argument that you can basically dismiss anything you don’t like and accept anything you do like by using this argument.

[00:18:50]  Blue: Okay and again it doesn’t seem like it fits very well with this idea of easy -to -varyness, where the argument is barely connected to the phenomena, the argument here is strongly connected to the phenomena and yet it’s still completely ad hoc. Okay or just change your definitions on the fly, declaring disobedience to be key to understanding general intelligence by simply redefining disobedience to mean doing something new and thus equivalent to human level creativity or by adding an untestable ad hoc auxiliary hypothesis to avoid refutation. These are all examples of ad hocness that don’t fit comfortably into the concept of easy -to -varyness unless you stretch that term more and more to be equivalent to ad hocness. In fact it’s fairly rare that an explanation is a bad explanation explicitly because the details are barely connected to the details of the phenomena like Deutsch claims. This is one of the main reasons that no one ever feels like their personal theories are easy to vary since their theory is connected to the details of the phenomenon. So consider how Dean really and truly thought his choice to claim that Jose loved violence boiled down to Jose simply being a non -libertarian. His reasoning was something like democracies or governmental institutions do not reduce violence. Jose is in favor of democracies and they use institutional violence which is a kind of illegitimate violence according to Dean. Thus Jose loves violence. I mean like there’s an actual logic to this right? The problem isn’t the logic. The problem is is that every ounce of these explanations are ad hoc to begin with and so there’s no particular reason to refer them yet.

[00:20:37]  Blue: This is a bad explanation to be sure but you can’t claim it’s not connected to the details of the phenomena that he is interested in. Interestingly, Hopper held a very different view of the relationship between myth and science. Okay so let’s go over what Hopper said because I really feel like this is important to understand. Hopper says from this is from Objective Knowledge page 347, the oldest scientific theories are built on pre -scientific myths. Now what is new in Greek mythology? This is the same page. What is newly added to all this seems to me to consist not so much in the replacement of myths by something more quote scientific. Scare quotes are his not mine. As a new attitude towards myths that these explanations character that these explanations character then begins to change seems to me to be merely a consequence of this new attitude. The new attitude I have in mind is the critical attitude. Notice how Popper’s agreeing with my idea that the critical attitude is the most important part. Okay not the nature of the explanation. In place of a dogmatic handling of the doctrine. That’s Objective Knowledge page 347. On the other hand it seems to me that the task which science sets itself that is the explanation of the world and the main ideas which it uses are taken over by science for myth without any break from the pre -scientific myth -making Objective Knowledge page 348. Popper instead claims that the real difference between science and myth is not the nature of the theories as Deutsch was claiming so much as the critical attitude of the individuals. In place of myth -making this is again Popper in Objective Knowledge.

[00:22:24]  Blue: In place of myth -making we find the tradition of criticizing theories which at first themselves are hardly more than myths. It is only in the course of this critical discussion that observation or empirical observation is called as a witness. So this is Objective Knowledge page 348. So to summarize what he just said he’s saying actually the first explanations that eventually became what we think of a scientific explanations today they all started off exactly the same as myths. There was no difference between myths and scientific explanations and it was actually the critical attitude of the people discussing them that eventually led to this idea we need to make our theories have empirical consequences it was their attitude that led to that and that’s what Popper is claiming.

[00:23:14]  Red: It seems to me you’re kind of that Popper and Deutsch both had a similar attitude and they see myths some almost like some validity in myths as sort of a pre -scientific or something that led into science is that fair that they had in some ways more similarities than differences in their their ideas about myths but that what you’re saying is almost like a question of emphasis in how they how much they explained that process is that fair.

[00:23:43]  Blue: So mostly yes so I’m getting to what I think is the one big difference but I think you’re right that it’s easy to see that Deutsch and Deutsch is clearly in some sense almost quoting Popper right I mean like a lot of Deutsch’s epistemological ideas come straight from Popper you can now almost find the quotes that he’s using that he’s then changing the wording on so

[00:24:07]  Blue: I do think you’re right that there’s a great deal of similarity to their views here okay but I do want to call out that there is a difference and it’s going to turn out this difference it may seem slight at the moment but it’s going to turn out to be a big difference and the difference is that Deutsch tries to explain what’s wrong with myths that they are easy to vary that the because the phenomena is barely connected the explanation is barely connected for phenomena and Popper is not taking that attitude in fact he’s saying there is not there’s not a fundamental difference between mythmaking and scientific explanation they’re a spectrum and that what really makes the difference is the critical attitude now let me explain why that’s true okay so the key difference here is Deutsch and Popper is to do it only certain kinds of theories can be tested to Popper once you have the right critical attitude you can turn myths into valid and testable scientific theories that’s what Popper just said and that is what’s going to turn out to be the one big difference between Deutsch and Popper on this okay at the same time this is Popper again critical uh conjecture refutation page 38 at the same time I realized that such myths may be developed and become testable the historically speaking all or very nearly all scientific theories originate from myths and that a myth may contain important anticipations of scientific theories examples are I can’t pronounce greek greek names um eppen medalli these theory of evolution by trial and error or harmonities myth of the unchanging block universe in which nothing ever happens and which if if we add another dimension becomes einstein’s block universe so this is why Popper doesn’t really have a negative view of myths he actually sees them as there’s no real break between myths and scientific explanation but here is the problem what do we mean by critical attitude so Popper’s saying the difference was critical attitude and is a critical attitude any less subjective than the term easy to vary now every single one of the crit rats that has made arguments that on this show we’ve taken a look at and would say oh that is a bad explanation

[00:26:24]  Blue: particularly in that last episode where I gave examples of that when we deconstructed them they definitely we deconstructed their their arguments we showed that there was problems with their arguments that they were making bad explanations but all of them thought they had a critical attitude right like does it have you ever met anyone who doesn’t think they have a critical attitude like I’ve I’ve never met someone who doesn’t very honestly believe that they have a proper critical attitude and that they’ve arrived at their beliefs whatever they are by very carefully thinking it out and everybody else has the improper critical attitude or else they would see that they were right right I don’t care how wild the theory is I don’t care if it’s a conspiracy theory like everybody believes they have a credit proper critical attitude

[00:27:09]  Red: I mean I guess you could take someone who’s extremely wrapped up in something like romantic philosophy leaves and just following your feelings and I mean that’s not okay maybe maybe but but then again there’s sort of a contradiction because how they probably if you pressed them about how they would have arrived at those those ideas about life they would probably try to defend it as as through something like a kind of reason that they thought they they oh people always look for reasons no matter what you yes yeah

[00:27:44]  Blue: okay so I’m gonna solve that problem I suggested the way to solve that problem the fact that everybody thinks they have a critical attitude so therefore when we say you need to have the proper critical attitude and that’s what poppers epistemology is really really about that’s entirely subjective so I’m instead going to define critical attitude as explicitly meaning I follow the no ad hoc rule and this is going to be critical for me explaining my point okay where ad hoc means I will only offer you explanations that have enough reach that they have testable consequences unrelated to the problem we’re trying to solve or in other words that all explanations offered will be formulated in such a way that they take empirical risks okay this is what I’m going to define as critical attitude means okay so now let’s do an experiment let’s take the myth of Hades and Persephone and let’s let’s add Deutsch’s test of Australia so again we have this idea that

[00:28:54]  Blue: Hades and Persephone we got this myth it explains the seasons we discover Australia that it’s warm right when Demeter is supposed to be sad we’ve now offered this as a test of the the theory of Hades and Persephone and we’ve now refuted the theory of Hades and Persephone okay now here’s the thing it is definitely true as per Deutsch that we could easily save this myth by making a quick change to the theory just like Deutsch suggests and the fact of the explanation our relationship between gods is so disconnected to the phenomenon in question trying to explain the seasons this is particularly easy for us to do but here is my challenge for you avoid that counter example of Australia from refuting the theory of Hades and Persephone by offering me a non ad hoc explanation that is to say you must offer me a counter explanation to save the myth that has its own testable consequences and the consequences can’t be something we already know about you have to offer an explanation in such a way that we can all agree there is some previously unforeseen outcome similar to general relativity with the editing Eddington expedition and then we get to go test it so Peter I’m going to give you that challenge can you offer me can you avoid using Australia as a refutation of the myth of Hades and Persephone can you avoid it while holding yourself to the requirement that this the new explanation you offer must be non ad hoc that is to say independently testable

[00:30:29]  Red: Bruce when you said when you said I here’s my challenge to you I was hoping you were talking about the listener and not me I can’t think that quickly okay I’m still on my second cup of coffee let’s just move on

[00:30:43]  Blue: so I don’t think there’s any way to do it right okay it’s it you might make a mistake here and think well I could make it testable I could like come up with some myth and I could say and I’m going to test it by and then offer some other phenomena that it explains also or something like that but recall that according to Popper it has to be independently testable and it has to be something and I just gave the quotes on this that wasn’t foreseen okay that if you take the right attitude that I’m only going to offer those types of explanations that refutation of Hades and Persephone will stand as a refutation and you won’t be able to come up with an alternative explanation to explain away that refutation and by merely holding us to the not no ad hoc rule even myths can be tested and refuted this is why I can’t agree with Deutsch that when theories are easy this is quoting Deutsch when theories are easily variable experimental testing is almost useless for correcting errors page 22 of beginning of infinity once you accept the not the no ad hoc rule even so -called easy to vary explanations can be put to a test empirically this is why I’m going to argue Popper believes the real difference between myths and science are not some objective difference between the kind of explanation being offered but instead boiled down to one’s critical attitude or rather adopting the no ad hoc rule as well as making your theories axiomatic and logically precise enough that we can work out consequences in the same way we’d work out other logical consequences and this is how I actually refuted creationism back when I was a creationist I mentioned that I had refuted creationism and I didn’t explain how let me now explain despite not knowing about Popper at the time I have always had a rather critical attitude I didn’t merely offer up problems to Darwinian evolutionists that they couldn’t solve although I did do that and in fact as I pointed out some of these problems I offered up to them they couldn’t solve even to today and the types of explanations they would offer me were very clearly ad hoc saves and at the time that seemed like it count it was a kind of a strike against Darwinian evolution in favor of creationism to me but here’s what happened I also researched what problems Darwinian evolution did solve and then I chose to take it take on the burden of seeing if I could come up with an alternative creationist explanation for those same phenomena so for example this may seem like a silly example but remember I’m a kid all right I need to explain where dinosaur bones came from so maybe I’d read I’d read in a creationist book that they lived before Noah’s flood and then I’d ask okay if that’s true then how might we test that I’d then look up how they dated dinosaur bones and I’d compare their dates with when Noah’s flood was supposed to happen and I’d find that there was hundreds of millions of years gap that I couldn’t explain between what the dating was saying and when the bible said Noah’s flood was undaunted I then tried to explain why the dating was off but I’d find that no matter what theory I came up with as to why the dating was wrong I couldn’t possibly close a 200 million year gap like that eventually I realized that even though Darwinian evolution had serious explanation gaps and that was what I was finding when I was debating Darwinians they that couldn’t be explained the creationist had at least had at least that much right that they did have explanation gaps it was nothing compared to how serious were the gaps in creationism as an explanation if one adopted a product proper critical attitude towards it and I would need something like Darwinian evolution to close that explanation gap that creationism had in other words I took upon myself the burden of coming up with a testable explanation now I know many creationists that do not do that and instead give a hand wavy response like oh it’s complicated or only God knows or something like that right um what separated me from these other creationists was my critical attitude of accepting the no hat ad hoc rule of course I didn’t know about popper at the time so I didn’t call it that but that was the attitude I had naturally

[00:35:08]  Red: now were you ever attempted to sort of pivot to something like intelligent design or you know not that there’s anything wrong with that necessarily but I mean you can kind of there’s different takes on the creationism debate right

[00:35:23]  Blue: yes um yes and I looked into each of those like this happened over a period of time and I would have to probably like have a separate podcast to explain each of these in many ways they’re all they’ve all got the same problem right that ultimately uh these like intelligent design basically adopts evolution as its explanation except when it doesn’t and so it’s not hard to see that what it’s really doing is it’s trying to come over the explanation that borrows the strength of Darwinian evolution as an explanation and then tries to find counter examples just enough that then it can still claim that there’s some something else going on right yeah and as an explanation it doesn’t work right it’s I mean it could be true but it’s a completely completely untestable explanation because they’re always going to say anything you could explain oh well that was Darwinian evolution and anything you can’t oh that’s a god in the gaps right oh

[00:36:23]  Red: yeah yeah

[00:36:24]  Blue: and the gaps kept kept shrinking if you read Francis Collins book the language of god he’s a he’s a devout christian who grew up as an atheist became a christian and then he’s famously the guy who is in charge in charge of the human genome project he’s one of the greatest scientists of our time right and he wrote a book written to people who believed in intelligent design and creationism to try to talk them out of it

[00:36:52]  Red: so

[00:36:53]  Blue: I actually listened to his book and that was one of the things I did it while I was looking into a lot of

[00:37:01]  Red: this is as a teenager so

[00:37:03]  Blue: when I listened to his book I would have been in my 20s by then

[00:37:07]  Red: at

[00:37:07]  Red: that point I think I more or less was an evolutionist but I just wanted to get his take on it and yeah he’s he’s basically an evolutionist too right so this is why you can’t really say that creationism is or isn’t easy to vary to me it wasn’t easy to vary to other creationists it might be or rather I chose not to easily vary it and other and other creationists chose to easily vary it but the same could be said of quantum mechanics most physicists today treat quantum mechanics the same way that most creationists treat creationism they simply ignore the no ad hoc rule this is talking about many worlds obviously and utilize ad hoc explanations to explain away the many worlds consequences of quantum mechanics so that’s why I do think it’s more a matter of critical attitude but you have to understand critical attitude not meaning as subjectively I think I’ve been critical but do you accept the no ad hoc rule and moreover do you accept the burden of explanation people often talk about burden of proof usually both sides trying to assign the burden of proof to the other side and I know many crit rats bristle at the term burden of proof because they see proof as anti fallible list by the way it’s not that’s something we would have to do a separate podcast on but but I can at least understand why they would bristle at that term but I think the proper way to look at this term is more as burden of explanation moreover who has the burden of explanation is always objective you must come up you must come up with only tested independently testable theories and you can only save them for refute from refutation via independently testable auxiliary hypotheses this is what is missing in the discussion with most of the discussions I’ve had with crit rats I am not a supporter of IQ theory and I want to make that clear right like I really don’t think IQ theory is a particularly good theory I was far more interested when I approached Brett and I approached the defenders of his theory to try to understand where they were coming from and how they were trying to explain it I wasn’t really in favor of IQ theory okay and I actually do think Brett’s theory of intelligence has promise right if the defenders of the theory will stop being dogmatic about it and start to treat it like with a proper critical attitude so they can error correct it and improve it into a real scientific theory because you can take theories like this and you can turn them into real empirical scientific theories if you have the right critical attitude okay but their issue today is they do not even slightly accept the burden of explanation that they carry they need to work out non ad hoc explanations using their theory that explain why people lose their intelligence due to say a severe knock on the head or a genetic disorder in the case of Down syndrome was the example we used or just getting older the fact that as you get older that if nothing else you become senile you’ve clearly lost your intelligence at that point but if you don’t become senile and people who are older often self report that they’re not as intelligent as they used to be right to be able to explain those phenomena in terms of Brett’s theory today is completely impossible right so they need to take those as serious problems with their theory and take the burden of explanation on themselves not trying to reassign it to the other person and say look that’s a problem I can’t solve today and then try to come up with a non ad hoc explanation using Brett’s theory and what’s going to actually happen is is they’ll end up tweaking Brett’s theory into something new and better right more testable and it explains more

[00:40:51]  Blue: it just see it seems to go along with the idea of epistemic humility right you should always be you know talking about an attitude you should always be open to the assertion that you’re even if the theory you strongly believe in has problems right right but I’m not sure too many people are but you know on all sides to be fair on all sides on all sides you know and I need to be careful here because I am in the crit rap community and this podcast is about that obviously it makes sense for me to take examples from the crit rap community and criticize them but I do not even for a moment think crit rats are somehow more dogmatic or less rational than really anybody else I’ve met right I mean every community you’re ever going to come across suffers from dogmatic issues

[00:41:44]  Red: very fair point right

[00:41:45]  Blue: and it just is the way it is right like you just will not find counter examples to this right the one big counter example and even it you can argue isn’t a counter example is the scientific community and even then if you go look at individual scientists individual scientists are often very very dogmatic in ways completely at odds with rationality reason or critical rationalism it’s almost more like as a community they are more rational but in individually they’re not more rational and I think that’s part of the the problem is is we’re trying to get at what does it mean to be rational why does science work why does why is critical rationalism the correct epistemology where does it have problems that we need to correct to get to the correct epistemology and these are all the questions that I’m interested in I want to ask and you do it by looking at the errors right you look at where things have gone wrong and the this is why I’ve picked on Brett’s theory of intelligence quite a bit right they they simply don’t take the burden of explanation seriously today and instead they use all purpose dismissals like well IQ theory is just fitting data because it doesn’t have mechanistic explanations all the way down responses like that when I’m offering you an actual problem that you really need to explain with your theory okay they’re really trying to shift the burden of explanation back to me when really it’s theirs to have

[00:43:14]  Blue: and they are irrational or dogmatic bad explanation responses it even should be obvious from the outset that there’s something wrong with these sorts of responses because it should be obvious that you can’t point to the problem of another theory to explain away the problems of your theory okay when they offer such all purpose explanations to me I know this means that they don’t have the slightest idea how to deal with the problem I’m offering them and so they’re moving to a shift of the blame you know shift of the burden of explanation to me because they don’t have a response which means their theory has a serious problem that they need to admit to and start working on by trying to conjecture non ad hoc explanations to deal with those problems how their theory how can their theory that intelligence is all about time and interest and that’s it be used to explain senility down syndrome or a knock on the head they need to embrace this as an interesting problem to solve and it is an interesting problem to solve right and they need to do it in a testable way using their theory as the starting point and this is really what it means to have a critical attitude is you just take these you almost fall in love with the problems of your theory you want to solve the problems of your theory you don’t want to explain them away you don’t want to shift the burden to somebody else you want to grasp that problem and say it’s up to me to explain this and that’s interesting okay now i’m going to offer you an explanation for why the not the no ad hoc rule works

[00:44:52]  Blue: but keep in mind when i say the no ad hoc rule i’m including the idea that you’re making your theories logically precise enough that we can all agree what predictions it should or shouldn’t be making using logic okay so let’s make a few assumptions first of all i’m going to assume realism is true there is a real world out there and it is distinct from us now it’s not an accident that pauper was a realist it’s actually key to understanding his epistemology okay first secondly i’m going to assume explicability so this i’m taking from deutch the real world follows natural explicable laws that can be precisely put in terms of logic or mathematical statements okay notice the connection there with the church during deutch deutch thesis that’s not an accident either deutch could see that there was a connection between pauper’s epistemology and this idea that pauper relied on that you can put everything into logical statements that you could then use deductive logic on okay um and then i’m going to assume the idea of truth statements about the world can be true or false or maybe partially true that is very similitude okay now if i accept each of these assumptions i can now draw the following conclusion a true theory about the world can always be made logically precise or mathematically precise if you prefer and in that form it will have reach that is to say independently testable consequences so that follows directly from those three assumptions now now corollary a false theory about the world either can’t be made logically mathematically precise and still have reach or if it is it won’t make true predictions about the world the no ad hoc rule including the idea that we can we can um make out theories logic make our theories logically precise plays off these conclusions it says in essence in essence we could summarize pauper’s epistemological view as okay if your theory is true then you should have no objection to making it logically precise and then working out consequences none of us can foresee without the theory okay i’m going to say that again because i feel like this is super important to understanding what i’m trying to get at here pauper’s epistemology could be summarized as saying in essence okay if your theory is true then you should have no objection to making it logically precise and then working out consequences none of us can foresee without the theory

[00:47:33]  Red: you know i think we need to put that on a meme or something you know

[00:47:37]  Blue: the

[00:47:37]  Red: bruises face and the quote yeah yeah right

[00:47:40]  Blue: all right now why is the no ad hoc rule a good idea well consider cambell’s and pauper’s idea of evolutionary epistemology by the way for the record cambell called it evolutionary epistemology pauper felt like that term was pretentious so he instead he called it towards a theory of evolutionary epistemology but i’m kind of calling them both evolutionary epistemology as a short form but let me admit pauper didn’t necessarily like the term okay

[00:48:11]  Red: so

[00:48:13]  Blue: their their epistemology was that all inductive achievement actually comes from variation in selection or if you prefer conjecture and refutation evolution is therefore under this view a search algorithm now i’m not the first person by far to have noticed that evolution is a search algorithm in fact we were we quoted back in the episode on the problem of open -endedness this realization from like leslie valiant and from people working in the artificial intelligence field that they understand that the algorithms they that they use are evolutionary algorithms are a kind of search algorithm okay

[00:48:51]  Red: that’s a fascinating way to think of it wow

[00:48:54]  Blue: okay now in fact let me even just just quickly let me just offer something here now first of all let me just say that this may only be approximately true not completely true and it would be a totally different podcast for me to get into why i have to say that okay but for the moment we’re going to accept it as true or at least as highly having a lot of various multitude okay if you’re doing variation in selection how could that ever not be a search algorithm after all you’re you’re you’re trying things that’s a search right but

[00:49:25]  Red: you’re just not you’re not trying everything of course but i guess maybe could you say that about any search algorithm yes so search

[00:49:32]  Blue: algorithms can consist of comprehensive searches or that then come with guarantees this is something they teach you in artificial intelligence school or they can be not comprehensive and you’re just trying to find a local minima okay so evolutionary algorithms

[00:49:50]  Blue: are always search algorithms period end of story okay now can the reverse also be true so let’s take any search algorithm okay so i’m doing any sort of search let’s say i’m just doing an a star search to find a shortest path you know or i’m trying to just search through every single thing in a stack trying to find the one needle i want okay all of those are examples of going through many variations and then having some sort of selection criteria by which you select the best one so all search algorithms are variation in selection algorithms and all variation in selection algorithms are search algorithms the two concepts may well be one and the same and this is in essence what Campbell and Hopper were getting at with Campbell’s theory of evolutionary epistemology this is important this idea that all search algorithms are in fact evolutionary algorithms really comes from Campbell from his 1970s paper and i challenged it in episode 26 this is why i feel like i need to put a little bit of a caveat on it because evolution but here was Campbell’s key point for to repeat we typically understand evolutionary algorithms or evolution in terms of three concepts variation selection but also replicators and Campbell was the first to notice that the replicators weren’t required that sometimes they’re nice to have as part of the variation selection algorithms they have a purpose in fact in machine learning we actually study what that purpose is and what they do is the replicators then create a sort of proxy for the the search space the the fitness landscape that we’re trying you don’t need to understand what these terms mean i’d have to do a separate podcast to explain them but with even without

[00:51:46]  Blue: replicators you can still do variation and selection and it still works in exactly the same way that evolutionary epistemology works because of this search algorithms and evolutionary algorithms have a deep link or may even be identical if Campbell is correct this really helped me make sense of why the no ad hoc rule is so useful the no ad hoc rule drastically certain croons the search tree okay there’s this gigantic tree of possible ideas an infinitely large tree of possible human ideas and when you say i’m only going to hear out theories that are independently testable i’m only going to hear out those theories i’m even if they’re true i’m not going to hear out your theory if it isn’t independently testable okay you have drastically reduced the search tree this is really why the ad hoc rule is such a great thing now you might say well wait a minute couldn’t that be bad though and this is something that comes up in machine learning and artificial intelligence what if your search algorithm prunes out the correct answer okay this is really a concern in artificial intelligence if if you make the search algorithm remove the correct answer you may not know you’ve removed it but if you’ve removed it then you’re going to end up with some sort of approximate answer that’s nowhere near as good okay so they’ve they’ve got things about guarantees and they’re trying to work out in fact i’m one of the

[00:53:15]  Blue: things i want to argue is that artificial intelligence is actually the study of epistemology but anyhow that’s a for another time um so you’re only going to consider theories once they have been put in a certain form that is to say that they are precise enough that we can all agree they have testable consequences beyond the problem you were trying to solve because as per our assumptions all true theories can at least in principle be put in term in such a form um this form that they’re independently testable we are not according to these assumptions eliminating any true theory from the search this is why the not no ad hoc rule is so great it at once drastically reduces the size of the search tree and prunes it but also never removes a true answer from the from the um search tree can you see why this is true because i feel like this is one of the most important aspects of paupers epistemology i think so where does the concept of like say a heuristic come into this like say a the chess player that they kind of can just sort of rule out you know 99 percent of the possible moves and just through through some kind of mental process do you see where i’m going with that

[00:54:36]  Blue: yes so this is something that Campbell talks extensively about in his 1970s paper um he has this idea that search algorithms often utilize a heuristic to prune the search tree because the the search tree is often so large that it’s intractable so you have to have some way of pruning the search tree again this is something that comes up in artificial intelligence like constantly like the study of artificial intelligence this is why i wanted to get a master’s degree in it is the study of artificial intelligence is all about how am i going to prune this search tree and how are we going to make this into a tractable problem because it’s currently an intractable problem okay um and heuristics is a is one might argue that is what we call the when we do this pruning of the search tree we call that a heuristic okay in

[00:55:30]  Blue: any case heuristic is a way of pruning the search tree and then they have this idea that sometimes a heuristic may prune the search tree without removing the correct answer they call that an immiscible heuristic and sometimes it doesn’t that would be a non -immiscible heuristic but there’s nothing necessarily wrong with removing the correct answer like if i’m doing an a star algorithm and i use a non -immiscible heuristic that prunes out the shortest path i’m still going to get a path that’s really close to the shortest path and maybe that’s good enough right so sometimes you want to use a non -immiscible heuristic okay now when the chess player is using their gut feel for what a good board looks like based on their past experience and maybe they can’t even explain how they’re doing it what they’re doing is they’re using a non -immiscible heuristic to prune the search tree okay which a human player has to do because a human player just cannot do very much of a search tree compared to a computer and so humans are very good at this they have this weird combination as we talked about this in the problem open up open -ended this episode they’ve got this weird combination of explanation and intuition that they use to be able to play go at levels that you can’t get a computer to play at least until you get to machine learning where go is able to start coming up with something similar in terms of intuition that a human player could do the the human players were able to outperform the computer just doing a search and in fact if you’ll recall once they actually got alpha go to work it could play at a professional level without doing a search it would simply make one it would do a search in that would try one move forward but that’s it that’s all it needed to do and then it could just tell this is going to be the best board position it could play at professional levels it not necessarily world champion levels but at professional levels okay so a heuristic is really a means of pruning the search tree so what we would say in is poppers no ad hoc rule it’s a heuristic okay in terms of how we would call it in terms of AI as a field but it’s an admissible heuristic it does not remove the correct answer

[00:57:45]  Blue: so it does this huge pruning of the search tree but it always leaves true answers in the search tree now of course we’re doing this based on those assumptions realism that there is such an idea of truth i can’t remember what the third one was it was explicability that the idea that all explanations could be put into logical terms computable terms okay logical terms for popper but if they’re logical and then we can put them into logic circuits therefore they’re computable okay so if you hold on to those three assumptions then it’s guaranteed that that the no ad hoc rule will at once drastically reduce the search tree and also leave the true answers there if it turns out one of those assumptions isn’t true then that would no longer be true okay and let me admit that because of course sodia is going to want to say that her theory doesn’t fit into logical terms what i don’t think sodia would would quite gets is that’s the same as saying popper’s epistemology is wrong now maybe she’s comfortable with that but these two are connected right you can’t just split these things apart popper’s epistemology church during dutch thesis and this idea of realism this idea of universal explainers and explicability none of these ideas can be teased apart they’re all kind of all part of one overall theory if that makes any sense and

[00:59:08]  Red: just so we can put this in historical context cambell you keep talking about this is donald cambell who was a collaborator of carl popper in the 70s yeah carl popper

[00:59:19]  Blue: loved his stuff yeah he was a big fan

[00:59:22]  Red: and he’s mostly known for this idea of evolutionary epistemology

[00:59:25]  Blue: that’s right you know that wasn’t even his main field like that’s what i know him for that’s what you hear about him for but it was like some little side thing he was doing so i think that often happens right you go into one area and then you end up falling into something else fair

[00:59:40]  Red: enough and

[00:59:41]  Blue: cambell loved carl popper like when you read his his evolutionary epistemology paper it he’s basically just ripping popper off not ripping popper off that sounds negative he’s extensively quoting popper if that makes any sense right so it’s probably not too surprising that popper loved him right it’s i

[00:59:58]  Red: think i’ve heard of him and his ideas on top down causation which is kind of another interesting thing

[01:00:05]  Blue: cambell pops up all over the place he founded he founded two fields i don’t think intentionally but he founded two fields when you are looking at there’s a field called universal Darwinism that that considers cambell the founder of the field and there’s like a whole field of scientists out there working in this field right that publishing papers things like that right and then when i bought a book on evolutionary algorithms by someone who’s like an expert in the field he tries to explain where the field came from and he actually claims cambell was one of the main founders of the field which was a little surprising to me so but he he lists out what the first papers were that led to the field and cambell’s was the earliest so he doesn’t necessarily solely credit cambell as the founder but cambell is the earliest founder of the field

[01:01:00]  Red: this is a complete tangent but i’ve been meaning wanting to ask you about this speaking of the top down causation which i think was invented by donald cambell i’ve been wondering if that’s the same thing as another very very related idea to dutch’s ideas about the copper atom and and emergence you know yeah those are related ideas sure you think do you think they’re just different ways of saying the same thing they are

[01:01:28]  Blue: different ways of saying the same thing

[01:01:29]  Red: so so dutch would agree with top down causation

[01:01:32]  Blue: if if understood in that way yeah

[01:01:35]  Red: okay so

[01:01:36]  Blue: i think the problem is that the term top down causation it’s like free will or it’s one of these terms that it comes with so much philosophical baggage including a lot of really untrue things that i’m always hesitant to say yes top down causation is true because that almost immediately means to some group of people something that isn’t true but i think top down causation in the dutch sense is a totally real thing and

[01:02:04]  Red: yeah

[01:02:05]  Blue: it’s and that was what i think cambell had in mind maybe it would be better

[01:02:10]  Red: if we just replace the word free will with top down causation yeah i mean more specific at least doesn’t sound as cool i guess but okay sorry sorry that was a tangent so

[01:02:23]  Blue: all right no interesting tangent so let me let me back up and repeat it just a little bit so because as per our assumptions all true theories can at least in principle be put into such a in such a form that they’re independently testable precisely enough to be independently testable we are not according to the assumptions actually eliminating a path to any true theory and we’re avoiding wasting time by refusing to deal with any theory that is not yet put into such a form such a form meaning that it’s precise enough that it has independently testable consequences okay now interestingly i don’t think deutch disagrees with anything i just said even though i’ve been criticizing some of the things he said i actually think that at some level deutch completely agrees with what i’m saying so deutch in logic of experimental tests almost says the same thing about how we usually have very few good explanations available so here’s the quote from logic of experimental test page 11 and although there are always countless logically consistent options for which theory to reject the number of good explanations known for an x x book and um is always small things are going very well when there are as many as two with perhaps the opportunity for a crucial

[01:03:42]  Blue: test more typically there is one or zero this is deutch saying the same thing when you require all explanations to be to follow the no ad hoc rule to be put into a form that are precise enough that it has independently testable consequences it is so hard to come up with them that you’re doing really great if you’ve got two in fact that is the ultimate gold standard and it’s super hard to get to you’re doing great if you even have one and this is why this concept of a best explanation really comes down to i current it means i currently have only one independently testable explanation for this phenomenon there may be an infinity of non -testable explanations out there and they may be the true explanation but at the moment i’m going with the one that’s independently testable and the reason why is because if one of those others out in that morass of non -testable theories if the true explanation is in that morass it will be possible to eventually figure out how to turn it into an independently testable explanation and it will eventually become part of the search algorithm but at the moment nobody knows how to do that so i’m not going to consider it any further because if i do the problem becomes completely intractable and this is why science works and this is popper’s explanation for why science works and we it makes progress so fast compared to the pre -scientific era so whereas deutch defines good theory as hard to vary which i said was subjective popper defines good theory as not ad not ad hoc okay so here’s quote from popper conjecture refutation page 81 one can show that the methodology of science we’re going to say that again the methodology of science and the history of science also become understandable in its details if we assume that the aim of science is to get explanatory theories that are as little ad hoc as possible a good theory or good explanation is not ad hoc while a bad theory is conjecture conjecture refutation page 81 recall ad hoc means has no empirically testable consequences other than the one problem it was introduced to solve so while to deutch we are maximizing explanation without usually offering a precise understanding of what we mean by maximizing explanation popper offers a very precise criteria for a good explanation it has independently testable consequences the no ad hoc rule has some fascinating consequences that i’ve never seen anyone talk about and this is the thing i’ve been wanting to talk about because just nobody talks about this but it seemed to fall directly from popper’s epistemology the most important of which could be stated like this you must solve all problems solely by increasing the empirical content of our theories you are never allowed to solve problems by reducing empirical content of our theories this follows naturally from the very fact that every problem requires an explanation that if you’re following the no ad hoc rule itself has its own independently testable consequences this means that our combined theoretical system will only ever grow in terms of testable consequences or in other words it will only grow in terms of empirical content popper

[01:07:18]  Blue: discusses this idea in logic of scientific discovery so this i didn’t make this idea up i’m getting this straight from having read popper okay it says as regards auxiliary as regards auxiliary hypotheses we propose the rule that only those auxiliary hypotheses are acceptable whose introduction does not diminish the degree of falsifiability or testability of the system in question but on the contrary increases it if the degree of falsifiability is increased that introducing the hypothesis has actually strengthened the theory i’m hoping that term strengthened the theory just got every crit rats hackles up but this is popper who’s talking okay the system now rules out more than it did previously it prohibits more we can also we can also put it like this the introduction of an auxiliary hypothesis should always be regarded as an attempt to construct a new system and this new system should then always be judged on the issue of whether it would if adopted constitute a real advance in our knowledge of the world um for those who claim you cannot strengthen the theory yes you can you can make your theories more empirical okay that’s what it means to strengthen the theory so recall to use our example of brett’s theory of intelligence there the defense would always say that their theory explains intelligence in terms of solely time and interest but brett understood his theory as brett understood his theory as maximizing explanation based on this idea that you’re supposed to be maximizing explanation but he found no reason to make his theory independently testable there were no testable consequences that he would admit to for his theory but under popper under this idea from popper that we’re only ever increasing the empirical content that due to the no ad hoc rule brett’s theory can be seen as ad hoc because by his own admission it isn’t testable and it can’t be falsified and it so um and it prohibits and rules out nothing this is no different than communism which also quote maximized explanation in the subjective sense but not in this objective sense that we’re talking about so to quote popper as he put it a theory which is not refutable by any conceivable event is non -scientific irrefutability is not a virtue of a theory as most as people often think but a vice conjecture of conjecture refutation page 36 it is only the content of this it is only the in context of this idea that we are um only allowed to solve problems by increasing the empirical content that we can understand how popper understood falsifiability or refutability too many crit rats that i’ve talked to to refute a theory is merely to make a criticism that you personally find convincing but this isn’t what popper meant by refutability he specifically understood refutability and falsifiability as being equivalent to the theory having empirical content here is what popper actually says the criteria of the criterion of the scientific status of a theory is its falsifiability a refutability or testability he sees these as synonyms that’s conjecture refutation page 48 or he says on page 36 every genuine test of a theory is an attempt to falsify it or refute it testability is falsifiability but there are degrees of testability some theories are more testable more exposed to refutation than others they take as it were greater risks so to popper we compare theories and we prefer the better explanation by which he specifically means the more testable theory with the higher amount of empirical content

[01:11:09]  Blue: and on pay on logic of scientific discovery page 105 he says thus i regard the comparison of empirical content of two statements as equivalent to the comparison of their degrees of falsifiability this makes our method all methodological rule that those theories should be given preference say that again those theories should be given preference which can be most severely tested he says that’s equivalent to the rule favoring theories with the highest possible empirical content okay there’s just no doubt this is what popper meant right he’s so clear on this so it’s i’m a little unsure this is something that we should cover in a separate podcast how this idea that refutation just meant i made a criticism that i personally find convincing when popper was so specifically talking about your theory must have independently testable consequences and it must have actually survived those tests and it must have empirical content and it it must and the more empirical content it has the better and we will always prefer the theory with the highest empirical content i mean like there’s just no doubt that is what and you just i just quoted him that is clearly what he meant okay

[01:12:27]  Red: out of curiosity have you how many people have you convinced of this this um

[01:12:32]  Blue: zero zero

[01:12:34]  Red: i’ve you’ve convinced me but i i it’s more might be more like brainwashing since i listened to you about 20 hours on it but anyone else or

[01:12:44]  Blue: no i haven’t convinced anybody as of yet so i think what they would say is that’s an important criteria i’ve had him i’ll actually have to go find the quotes but i’ve had him say oh that’s an important criteria but it’s not definitive like you’re saying

[01:12:55]  Red: okay

[01:12:56]  Blue: it it certainly was definitive what popper said it was definitive right yeah you can disagree with popper i guess and maybe that’s exactly what they’re doing but there there is definitely not this idea that critical rationalism is explicitly about making your theories increasingly empirical okay they just i’ve never come across anyone that actually buy i shouldn’t say that in terms of discussions on twitter that i’ve never come across anyone who agrees with me on that i can give you very specific quotes of critical rationalists that are famous like say jonathan roush where he explicitly says that right so there’s like tons of big names out there that agree with me on this and in fact probably i in part believe this because i’ve read their books and i know that’s what they said right like probably i got the ideas from jonathan roush and from others right and from from reading popper like popper says these things i read logic of scientific discovery went oh this is what popper say right if you haven’t read logic of scientific discovery i think there’s very little hope that you’ll actually understand what popper’s epistemology was which is why i think you should start with that book even though it’s the hardest book

[01:14:06]  Red: and that’s the first one too right it is bookie breath like in the 30s it’s the only real book he

[01:14:13]  Blue: wrote right i think a lot of his other books i might be wrong on this but i think a lot of his other books are like collections of essays or speeches or something like that they’re usually not comprehensive books if that makes any sense

[01:14:25]  Red: well open society and it’s enemies oh good point that is that is absolutely three volume but you’re right basically each volume is book length i think

[01:14:34]  Blue: yeah it’s two volumes but each one’s book length yeah

[01:14:37]  Red: okay so

[01:14:39]  Blue: yeah you’re right that’s actually another example i i guess i wasn’t counting that one because it wasn’t explicitly about his epistemology obviously it’s like to the deeply rooted in his epistemology

[01:14:51]  Red: and

[01:14:51]  Blue: that’s what he talks about a lot throughout the books but like the only i think the only book he intentionally wrote about his epistemology was logic of scientific discovery and the other collection of books are usually i mean like he has the book about his biography which is actually about epistemology but it’s like and that it was a book he wrote as a book right but it wasn’t like a book on epistemology i it

[01:15:13]  Red: reads more like essays right

[01:15:14]  Blue: right so i take it back of course he wrote other books that’s not the only book but it’s the only book where he intentionally said i’m going to sit down and i’m going to explain from start to finish what my epistemology is

[01:15:27]  Red: okay let

[01:15:29]  Red: me just back up a little the last quote from popper was that um that we should give preference to the most severely tested and that that is equivalent this is a quote from popper equivalent to the rule favoring theories with the highest possible empirical content okay logic of scientific discovery page 105 popper saw this as directly related to adopting quote the decision for laying down suitable rules for the empirical method is to adopt such rules as will ensure the testability of scientific statements remember testability means falsifiability which is to say their falsifiability i should have just continued reading the quote logic of scientific discovery page 27 so popper is pretty harsh on the idea that you can just trot out a metaphysical theory as a competitor to an empirical theory like crit rats often do this is why it’s not okay to claim that you refuted IQ theory using brett’s theory of intelligence brett’s theory of intelligence needs to first be turned into at least as empirical a theory as the theory of general of g -factor right of IQ theory i’m not saying IQ theory is a great theory i i haven’t read um there’s a great article that i’ve kind of skimmed but i haven’t read in detail but i’m planning to do in a podcast at some point by nicholas teleb where he says IQ theory is mostly pseudoscience and and kind of skimming through it like i really like what i’ve seen in the article so i’ve been wanting to dig into it more deeply and do it since we’ve said so many things accidentally in favor of IQ theory because we’re saying criticisms of brett’s theory of intelligence that the simple truth is that IQ theory is a really sucky theory like it has empirical content and it has survived corroborations that makes it in some sense better than brett’s theory because brett’s theory is not even trying to do that but that’s about all i can say for it i mean like it’s probably a terrible theory in almost every other conceivable way what we’re really looking for is a theory that is at least as attestable as IQ theory but says something different than IQ theory and i think brett’s theory could be turned into that right like i i in fact i could almost tell you right now what the tweak you need to make is to brett’s theory to make it a competitor is you probably have to admit that there is such a thing as a damaged brain and that if you have a damaged brain then you aren’t going to be able to learn as fast and now you need to work out how that is a factor in addition to um time and interest okay now once you’ve introduced that i can see why they’re so resistant to introduce that idea it almost feels like you’ve just given into the idea of g -factor but you haven’t right you could make the case that once you reach a certain point where it’s functioning correctly that IQ could measure a g -factor up to the point where you’ve now of regular intelligence and that everyone have regular intelligence from that point forward it really is just time and interest now i don’t know if that theory is true like i’m not even advocating that theory but that theory now encompasses what the empirical content from IQ theory with without giving up on the idea that time and interest are if they’re not the only factors they’re not they are still the most important factors and you could almost from here tease out consequences and turn this into a testable theory that’s says it’s not my theory i’m not going to be the one to do it right i mean it’s burden of explanation is on brett not me because this is the theory he’s advancing he needs to figure out how to solve this problem and it’s going to require him to introduce some sort of other factor than the two he wants okay but it doesn’t necessarily require that he embrace IQ theory i don’t know if that makes sense or not right is he could come up with something that’s an alternative to it and by the way everything i just said right now that’s totally ad hoc at this point until it has its own testable consequences let’s be clear about that but i’m just giving an example of how you could go about this so this idea that we’re only allowed to increase the amount of empirical content let’s give this idea a name this is the idea that i just quoted from popper he clearly says it i just make sure that there’s no doubt i got this idea from popper reading logic of scientific discovery but this idea is the one i’ve never heard people talk about okay let’s give it a name so we can talk about it really really easily the name i’m going to coin for it this is my term is poppers ratchet poppers ratchet is this idea that you are only allowed to solve problems by making the theory your theories more precise and increasing the empirical content of your theories never by making them vaguer or adding degrees of freedom or reducing the empirical content of your theories this is what i’m going to call poppers ratchet that’s my term that’s why you’ve never heard it before but the idea is 100 popper okay i did not make the i made the term up not the idea understanding poppers ratchet is key to understanding why discovery of the scientific method exploded into this incredibly fast progress and it’s also key to understanding the difference between dogmatism and a critical attitude indeed it is literally defines what it means to have a critical attitude versus being dogmatic how do we increase the empirical content of a theory well popper and i had the quotes from the previous podcast where i quoted popper so let me just kind of summarize what popper said the key thing is to make your theories more universal so that they are easier to falsify but make them so that they are more prohibitive if you will or rather easier to imagine falsifying cases um while it’s actually impossible to find them in real life now this is something that i don’t think popper ever quite explained well he often talked about falsifiability but a true theory can’t be falsified so in a certain sense a true theory could never have any falsifiability what popper really has in mind is the ease with which you could imagine a counter example so think about like newtons theories okay but for the sake of argument let’s say that newtons theory had never been falsified and we never had a single counter for thousands of years there were no counter examples to newtons thousands of years hundreds of years newtons theories had zero counter examples okay and so people just thought it was just the truth but it was super easy to imagine what a counter example would look like you could just imagine dropping that rock and the rock falls and it hits the ground and it doesn’t follow um the equations that newton gave you okay falsifiability is the ease with which we can easily work out what a counter example would look like it’s not actually the ability to find a counter example okay does that make sense

[01:22:32]  Red: yes it does and newton died in 1727 by the way i thought he was a little earlier than that but yeah so a couple hundred years a couple

[01:22:41]  Blue: hundred years yeah

[01:22:42]  Red: so

[01:22:43]  Blue: the key thing here is if you make your theories more universal then it makes them easier to falsify he says the degree of corroboration of a theory which has a higher degree of universality this is popper can thus be greater than that of a theory which has a lower degree of universality and therefore a lower degree of falsifiability related to this to that is making our theories more precise and popper this is from logic of scientific discovery page 268 in a similar way theories of a higher degree of precision can be better corroborated than less precise ones the second way we could do this is we could remove degrees of freedom you can make a theory more precise by making it axiomatic and thus easy to tell if it’s changed or not this is what popper had said plus easier to apply logic to so logic of scientific discovery page 50 popper says for a severe test of a theoretical system

[01:23:41]  Blue: or in other words an explanation presupposes that it the theory is at the time sufficiently definitive and final informed to make it impossible for new assumptions to be smuggled in in other words the system must be formed sufficiently clearly and definitively to make every new assumption easily recognizable for what it for what it is a modification and therefore a revision of the system okay this is why precision is so important to understanding poppers epistemology it’s actually a way of of increasing the empirical content of your theory you make it more precise make it more universal but also if you make it more precise the the number of things that you can say oh that that theory now implies this and you can go test the theory goes up your empirical content grows okay or put another way poppers ratchet implies that we’re always reducing the degrees of freedom of a theory rather than making our theories vaguer note that if your theory

[01:24:44]  Blue: can’t be put into precise logical terms hopper’s epistemology could not apply to it this is actually my main criticism of the sodius theories when she says she’s got these theories of physics but they can’t be put into computable forms it’s the exact same thing as saying there’s just no way to apply popper’s ratchet to it and therefore it’s entirely outside of popper’s epistemology that’s the part I actually reject this is and again this is how trituring deutch thesis and popper’s epistemology offers epistemology interact and in fact are one and the same thing so why is popper’s ratchet not talked about i’m going to suggest that there are at least some psychological reasons for why that is popper’s ratchet is the secret to why science makes fast progress but it is not what human beings enjoy doing in their arguments human beings want to reason using their intuitions um peter you and I we’ll talk about things and we’ll often say that rings true to me right that’s that’s using your intuition something feels true it kind rings true even if you can’t tell exactly why okay popper’s ratchet takes a lot of the fun out of it our intuitions feel correct to us it’s very hard to believe that they aren’t just truth so here is an example that I thought was brilliant this comes from Hans Rawlings Rosling from his book factfulness which by the way if you’re a fan of david deutch you will love the book factfulness oh

[01:26:14]  Red: yes yes I read it kind of an essential in the yes optimism canon yes

[01:26:19]  Blue: he basically shows that that people are overwhelmingly pessimistic and to the point where they’d have no idea what the truth actually is in terms of the growth of positive things in the world right if you go out and you give them tests they will actually do worse than a monkey who’s just throwing darts because because they have such a pessimistic bent that they automatically pick the wrong answer

[01:26:42]  Red: it’s like the the negativity bias you might say you’re more worried about the cheetah eating your baby than the right the uh wonderful campfire you’ve just made or something yeah so

[01:26:55]  Blue: Rosling gives an example that in the moment I heard it I thought oh I gotta use this in a podcast he says one evening in 1974 I was shopping for bread at a supermarket in a small swedish town when I suddenly discovered a baby in a life -threatening situation an untrained eye couldn’t see the danger but fresh out of medical school I heard my alarm bells go off I walked over to the stroller as quickly as I could and I lifted the baby who was asleep on his back and I turned him over and put him on his tummy now now it’s okay are you familiar with with this at all do you know oh yeah yeah

[01:27:31]  Red: we went through that uh with with our babies I I feel like maybe people have come away from that a little no it’s the

[01:27:37]  Blue: opposite today

[01:27:38]  Red: oh okay

[01:27:39]  Blue: so and this is the point he’s making okay that you want your baby sleeping on its back not its tummy because there’s there’s good evidence that if you’re maybe sleeping on its tummy that the incidence of sids sids yeah

[01:27:52]  Red: yeah that’s right okay

[01:27:53]  Blue: so he’s actually doing the exact opposite because back in 1974 they thought it was exactly the opposite okay so he goes on to explain that back then we thought it was dangerous to let babies sleep on their backs because it was well known that during the wars uh like world war two and such soldiers on their backs tended to die well if they were unconscious they would while unconscious vomit and drown in their own vomit so they they learned so we learned to put them on their stomachs so that the vomit would come out of their mouth and they wouldn’t die so the assumption was that this should apply to babies given that babies also vomit while they’re unconscious okay

[01:28:32]  Red: what I what I remember now from when I researching this was that I used to worry about our babies doing that but you have to be like you know I mean when Jimmy Hendricks or someone all these all these rock stars die of die of choking on their own vomit they’re heavily medicated

[01:28:54]  Blue: yes obviously you’ve done it

[01:28:56]  Red: so so when a baby a baby would never you know unless you’re giving your baby drugs and alcohol it’s it’s always going to wake up when it vomits that’s

[01:29:05]  Blue: right

[01:29:05]  Red: right okay

[01:29:06]  Blue: you and that is the correct answer so he actually goes on to explain that he points out that it seemed like it was just pure logic if soldiers die due to vomit when they’re on their backs babies should too it didn’t feel like a conjecture it felt like they were just working out an obvious logical outcome of an explanation but actually it’s far more dangerous for babies to sleep on their tummies because that that leads to sins so he goes on to say the mental clumsiness of a general generalization like this is often difficult to spot the chain of logic seems correct when seemingly impregnable pregnaval logic is combined with good intentions it becomes nearly impossible to spot the generalization error even though the data showed that sudden infant infant deaths went up not down when you put them on their tummies it wasn’t until 1985 that a group of pediatricians in Hong Kong actually suggested that the prone position might be the cause even then doctors in Europe didn’t pay attention it took swedish swedish authorities another seven years to accept their mistake and reverse the policy unconscious and then now he explains why unconscious soldiers were dying on their backs when they vomited sleeping babies unlike unconscious soldiers have fully functioning reflexes and turned to their sides if they vomit while on their backs but on their tummies maybe some babies are not yet strong enough to tilt their heads up to keep their airways open he does then goes on to say that last part’s a conjecture they’re not actually sure if that’s the reason or not yet okay but it may be the reason why sudden infant death syndrome goes up when you put babies in their tummies is that some babies may be vomiting when they’re on their tummies they can’t move their heads enough and so the airway stays close this has been a nutshell the real problem of induction or generalizing all our generalizations are actually just conjectures this is actually what popper is saying right that we they’re conjectures no matter how much they feel like pure logic they need to be actually tested to see if we made a mistake somewhere in that chain of pure logic popper’s ratchet also reveals how often our favorite ideas are really just meaning memes and not the best theories that we we thought they were it forces one to admit that most of the time we just don’t know what the best theory is because none of the competing theories are actually currently testable or all of them are equally testable so there’s no clear winner that some work in some cases and some work in other cases it forces one to take a far more fallible stance except in the rare rare cases where best theories that is to say there’s only one good explanation that is to say there’s only one explanation that is independently testable empirically emerges people seem to have an almost primal urge to believe they’ve thought things through and that they’ve worked out the truth so we’re almost constantly in danger of becoming dogmatic so that’s actually the end of the first part of my explanation I wanted to throw an appendices on there though that this is a little unrelated but it’s tangential but I think it’s related enough I want to throw it out there so as an appendancy one might ask okay Bruce even if I buy popper’s ratchet how would we ever get conjectures in the first place I don’t know if someone would ask this or not I asked this okay and we talked about this a little bit in the last episode um when Einstein comes up with his conjecture that Newton’s theory is wrong and that instead we need to be thinking of some sort of new theory that treats gravity not as a force at that point his explanation is entirely non testable and so from a certain point of view you might say well it doesn’t make sense we would never even make the conjecture and it’s going to take him eight years literally is going to take him eight years to turn it into a testable theory so for eight years is popper being sorry is Einstein being irrational preferring his theory over Newton’s theory

[01:33:12]  Blue: okay so that’s the way that’s the steelman version of the issue I’m trying to raise okay here’s my answer to this to that question I’m going to answer it with a with a question and the question is did popper say there was or wasn’t a scientific method this is why I recently had a twitter tweet where I asked for where did popper say that there wasn’t a scientific method and David Deutsch himself responded to the tweet and gave me the reference so that I could use it for this podcast by the way so thank you David Deutsch for helping me out here you hear all the time that popper said there was no scientific method and here’s the actual quote that gets quoted where he says this this the course he’s like teaching a course in the scientific method he says the course is in scientific method it is called introduction to scientific method and the first thing I want to say as an introduction is that this is a subject that does not exist now it you may have noticed as I emphasized it a little that in the quotes I just made from popper explaining what popper’s ratchet was that he without a doubt said there was a scientific method so we’ve kind of got these two things one where you’ve got definitive quotes from popper where he says there isn’t a scientific method and ones from popper where he definitively says there is a scientific method okay now how do we reconcile this and it turns out that the way we reconcile this is the answer to the question I just asked okay um specifically popper said that part of the scientific method was this idea that we have rules or conventions such as the no ad hoc rule which is the basis for popper’s ratchet um that we follow because they they make it so that theories can be falsified and that if you don’t follow them then no theory can be falsified okay and that is what popper said the scientific method was it was this group of rules or conventions that you followed so in logic of scientific discovery here’s the actual quote I tried to determine empirical to define empirical science with the help of the criterion of falsifiability but I was obliged to admit the justice of certain objections I promised a method method methodological supplement to my definition just as chess might be defined by the rules proper to it so empirical science may be defined by means of its methodological rules that’s page 32 of logic of scientific discovery first a supreme rule is laid down this is popper again which serves as a kind of norm for deciding upon the remaining rules and which is thus a rule of a higher type it is the rule that says that other rules of scientific procedures must be designed in such a way that they do not protect any statement in science against falsification page 33 of logic scientific logic of scientific discovery so apparently popper actually explained what the scientific method was and he claimed it doesn’t exist so how are we going to reconcile this the answer is not surprisingly it depends on what you mean by scientific method so let’s take a look at the full context of what popper said when he said there wasn’t a scientific method here’s the actual quotes in in context now let us begin our course the course in scientific method it is called introduction to scientific method and the first thing I want to say as an introduction is that it is a subject that does not exist now the fact that the subject does not exist may strike some as strange the usable the usual idea of the scientific method is that there is a certain technique or procedure for making scientific discoveries and that you can learn this technique and then apply it in science to make discoveries according to the usual view a man either knows scientific method and makes scientific discoveries or he does not know scientific method and makes no discoveries unless of course he should happen to make some by chance if this is what is meant by scientific method then the subject certainly does not exist for there simply are no techniques or procedures for making discoveries in science contrary to the usual view this is still popper there are many examples of scientists and many very great scientists who have only once in their lives made a major discovery these are scientists who even though they continued to be the forefront of science and were able to criticize other people’s discoveries in a most excellent way and even though they had problems they would have loved to solve and surely tried to solve were never again able to make a major discovery now this would be inexplicable if being a great scientist consisted in being an expert in scientific method in other words popper is this is me now contextually arguing that there is a common misunderstanding of what the scientific method is as some magic automated procedure you that you follow and it will inevitably make you’ll inevitably make scientific discoveries and he’s saying this is not correct there is no automatic procedure to make discoveries the scientific method in this sense in this sense does not exist the real scientific method consists first of a creative conjecture phase that is entirely non -methodical but once you make the conjecture there is a definitive method to how to go about handling that conjecture in a scientific way and that is the set of conventions we’ve been talking about particularly the no ad hoc rule um you follow that and you quickly quickly find that it’s impossible these conventions such as the no ad hoc rule that you follow that you should follow poppers arguing or you’ll quickly find it’s impossible to falsify your theories and error correction will grind to a halt you’ll become satisfied with the pure logic you think your conjecture came from and it will feel not like a conjecture but like you reason to the truth this is why in the same lecture popper goes on to say it meaning the scientific method exists only in the sense that we can study the ways of criticism

[01:39:28]  Blue: now how does this answer our question about how to deal with conjectures once you realize this this this does in my opinion answer the question how do we come up with new theories in the first place if you can’t consider non -testable theories due to the no ad hoc rule the short answer is you’re allowed to make your own personal risk to pursue any conjecture you want for any reason you want but that is a completely different from having reasoned to a correct solution on the contrary during the conjecture phase there is really no reason for anyone to take your conjecture seriously until you’ve made it independently testable to prove that it is not an ad hoc theory i’ve mentioned before that in my disagreements with the people i’ve talked to i’ve used a lot obviously sodia brett and denis as people i’ve disagreed with over this that in many cases they have reason to something they feel quite certain about they don’t know how to turn their theories into independently testable theories but it just really feels like they’ve reasoned to something that’s true and then they can’t seem to understand when i say something like yes that’s an interesting conjecture feel free to keep pursuing it let me know if you find a way to make it testable um and then otherwise i don’t show much else else interest in the theory it’s because this is their personal conjecture it’s not yet been fixed or turned into an independently testable theory so it’s not yet a theory that people should start adopting as if it’s a best theory um to them it feels like they found really good criticisms of the prevailing theory church during dutch thesis for sodia g factor for brett animal zombies for denis and they think they’ve reasoned to the only possible alternative theory so they can’t understand why i’m not embracing their theories as if they’re true but the simple truth is is that we often feel this way about our conjectures we self identify with our conjectures and we tend to accidentally become dogmatic about them but the correct fallible’s position is neither to reject these conjectures nor embrace them as correct but instead to ask the person to make them independently testable to summarize then popper’s ration is one of the least talked about parts of popper’s epistemology most people don’t even realize it is a crucial part of his epistemology even people that have extensively extensively studied popper’s writings don’t seem to have any knowledge of it or if they do they see it as optional popper’s ratchet means you are only allowed to solve problems by making your theories more precise and increasing the empirical content of your theories never by making them vigor adding degrees of freedom or reducing the empirical content of our theories i say our theories here because of course it may be that you’re increasing the empirical content of an auxiliary theory not theory proper but either is fine it’s the overall level of empirical content that goes up it doesn’t have to be the theory itself maybe the theory itself it doesn’t have to be

[01:42:33]  Red: okay so to summarize in my own way we should just be always be trying to make our theories more empirical

[01:42:42]  Blue: yes that’s

[01:42:43]  Red: kind of it the gist of it that’s where the direction the ratchets should be turning that’s

[01:42:49]  Blue: correct

[01:42:49]  Red: right and it just is just science are we talking about moral theories political theories no that

[01:42:56]  Blue: no that’s a good question and it’s obviously going to be outside the bounds of this podcast episode okay for me to answer it

[01:43:02]  Red: yeah

[01:43:03]  Blue: and and so i’ve i’ve mentioned this several times and i’ve been building up to this where i’ve said what’s the difference between a bad explanation and a good metaphysical metaphysical theory and of course i asked you that and then you couldn’t answer that question right and i think more people couldn’t answer that question because they’ve never thought to ask it okay in some sense that’s the question we need to answer okay that there must be some sort of objective difference between a bad explanation and a non -med and a metaphysical theory or a philosophical theory okay what is that difference so let me just say at this point that that is a question that’s a little harder to answer and so what i’m presenting today would be for any theory that is trying to explain real life consequences okay so it should apply to brett’s theory of intelligence for brett to define to declare his theory philosophical or metaphysical is cheating because he is telling us something about how intelligence in the brain actually works therefore we have every expectation for him to turn it into an empirical theory but there are other theories out there well that wouldn’t be true for example popper’s theory itself there’s no way to do an experiment to determine which epistemology is the right epistemology therefore it’s unclear how you could ever turn popper’s theory into an empirical theory at least in

[01:44:34]  Blue: the strict sense right um because of that we see an immediate difference there where when the defender it wasn’t brett himself but when the defenders of brett’s theory i would give them counter examples and they would declare it a philosophical theory at that point you knew they were cheating right you knew that they were dogmatically defending their theory rather than taking it seriously as a theory and the reason why is because the theory itself is trying to tell you something about the world in a in a way that absolutely should could be testable therefore needs to be testable and this is going to be as much as i can answer right now i think that i can give you a deeper answer but it’s going to require a totally separate podcast

[01:45:14]  Red: so you’re saying they’re they’re they pivot to the assertion that empirical ideas don’t

[01:45:23]  Blue: don’t

[01:45:24]  Red: matter to metaphysical theories that’s

[01:45:26]  Blue: what they pivot to

[01:45:27]  Red: yeah

[01:45:27]  Blue: so it it gets used as a way of trying to imbingize what should have been an empirical scientific theory um you simply declare it to be philosophical i and again this wasn’t the only time this has happened before i ever even started to bring it up on the podcast i had had numerous crit rats suddenly tell me this is a philosophical theory when i would bring up uh counter examples to their theory

[01:45:52]  Red: but you know at the same time i’m not sure if i’d want to apply popper’s ratchet to everything in life that might be a bit neurotic or something i mean does my does my dog love me or so you

[01:46:07]  Blue: know i think we should do an episode specifically about what are the limits of poppers ratchet or more maybe more more like how would you adapt poppers ratchet to apply to a non empirical theory and

[01:46:21]  Blue: i think there’s a there’s some really like incomplete but really good progress that can be made by trying to answer that question and i even got some ideas i want to like suggest but i we don’t have time today i’ll have to do that in a future podcast um so even a question like does my dog love me the first question you would have to ask is you know how do you is there some reason why you need definitively need an answer to this question right is is is it important to you is it important that you know if it’s true or not right if it is then yeah we probably ought to be applying poppers ratchet to it in some way right and now what does that mean in this context well i’m not sure right we’d have to now stop and think about it okay how would you imply popper how would you apply the same concept as poppers ratchet to a metaphysical theory and that’s the question we would want to now ask because obviously it can’t be that the amount of empirical content goes up because metaphysical theories by definition don’t have empirical content so it creates a really interesting question that i actually think is worth asking and trying to dig into let me just say though that i think a lot of these questions like does my dog love me maybe i don’t even care what the answer is for all intents and purposes i want i i want to believe my dog loves me i don’t own a dog by the way but but like my sister owns a dog and it’s the family dog so that’s my dog yeah and i

[01:47:50]  Blue: believe my dog loves me right so there is some validity to the idea that if it feels good let’s just go with that right it’s not really a pressing question in any other way if i were to apply poppers ratchet i believe i would come to the same conclusion by the way but i do believe that that the theory that my dog loves me if i get serious about it as an empirical theory that it it can be we’ve already mentioned this at a high level in in other podcasts like animal grief things like that yeah that they’ve actually attempted to test these things yeah right and they’ve come up with clever ways to test it and so far the theory that your dog loves you is the best corroborated theory right so even if you do take it seriously as a scientific theory it’s survived it’s it and it’s an example of where you know if you actually really needed to know go read what the science says on the subject and that’s probably what you would want to do to find out if your dog loves you or not and you’ll find that right now we think that your dog does love you that’s that’s what the current theories say right okay okay and then you could talk about how good are these theories how empirical are these theories are they strong theories and i think the answer is no they’re not right and that’s kind of what the state of the current theory is at this point that they’re moderately testable but not strongly testable yet

[01:49:16]  Blue: so in a future podcast let’s discuss the key let’s discuss folk epistemology i raised this in a past podcast in the episode on um the problem of open edinus

[01:49:28]  Red: okay i

[01:49:29]  Blue: i would claim that by default human beings have a certain epistemology that they followed that i would call folk epistemology and that you just naturally intuitively do it okay so one of the the key questions we want to ask is what’s the difference between folk epistemology and critical rationalism i’m going to argue that the key difference is poppers ratchet or the no ad hoc rule okay poppers ratchet being a consequence of the no ad hoc rule

[01:49:57]  Red: okay

[01:49:59]  Blue: so i because of that because folk epistemology isn’t the same as dogmatism but folk epistemology its main problem is that it allows for dogmatism it’s it’s an epistemology that can get to the truth but can also get bogged down in falsehoods whereas poppers ratchet poppers epistemology doesn’t okay so i’m going to argue that that’s why i’m going to argue that um poppers ratchet is a key difference between being dogmatic and being rational okay now let me remind you though also being dogmatic is not all bad episodes 51 to 52 we talked about cases where being dogmatic was actually quite helpful to society that we’ve got these dogmatic people out there that force us to really think about certain problems and think about vague theories about how to solve those problems that then eventually get uh turned into something that’s stronger right that’s more empirical i’m also going to argue that poppers ratchet is what it really means to reason that is to reason to reason is to severely test our ideas no matter how much we believe them personally in fact you might even to kind of borrow language from debormail here you might take a phrase like reasoning as severe testing that to reason is to severely test

[01:51:17]  Red: but bruce this has been a another uh wonderful uh conversation at least to me and um i’m still not bored with listening to you talk i hope our audience feels the same way but that was uh that was nice and i hope i hope you have a have a wonderful day

[01:51:38]  Blue: all right well yes thank you peter the theory of anything podcast could use your help we have a small but loyal audience and we’d like to get the word out about the podcast to others so others can enjoy it as well to the best of our knowledge we’re the only podcast that covers all four strands of david doich’s philosophy as well as other interesting subjects if you’re enjoying this podcast please give us a five star rating on apple podcast this can usually be done right inside your podcast player or you can google the theory of anything podcast apple or something like that some players have their own rating system and giving us a five star rating on any rating system would be helpful if you enjoy a particular episode please consider tweeting about us or linking to us on facebook or other social media to help get the word out if you are interested in financially supporting the podcast we have two ways to do that the first is via our podcast host site anchor just go to anchor.fm slash four dash strands f o u r dash s t r a n d s there’s a support button available that allows you to do reoccurring donations if you want to make a one -time donation go to our blog which is four strands dot org there is a donation button there that uses paypal thank you

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